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    Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 3:21am
Everyone,

I would like to announce a new set of tutorials being created by SolidWorks, specific to the SAE Baja competition. Over the next few months we will be making 5-10 minute tutorials for common Baja design projects using SolidWorks and then posting them on YouTube.  The first video will be out in a few weeks.  

Last year we did a similar series for Formula SAE.  You can find most of them here:http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=solidworks+formula+SAE&aq=1

Those will give you a general idea of what the videos will be like. 

We would like to get some feedback from you on these videos. Please send me an email if you have comments or suggestions for topics you would like covered. My email is:

sfaulkner@solidworks.com

Also, feel free to leave any comments here. We hope that these videos can provide some valuable knowledge to Baja teams. Let us know what you think!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnpate01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 5:52am
Thanks for making these.  They were a really big help once last year and really simplified some stuff we were unsure about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 7:37am
I know the biggest struggle for our team during its 6 year existence has been modelling the frame.  I personally have never tackled it so I cannot make any specific suggestions on what to show in a tutorial but anything would be better than nothing.
 
I doubt we are the only team in this situation, but if we are then a frame tutorial is not necessary for only one team.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 8:32am
Originally posted by Rob71zilla Rob71zilla wrote:

I know the biggest struggle for our team during its 6 year existence has been modelling the frame.  I personally have never tackled it so I cannot make any specific suggestions on what to show in a tutorial but anything would be better than nothing.
 
I doubt we are the only team in this situation, but if we are then a frame tutorial is not necessary for only one team.

Weldments FTW


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wishin4snow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 9:44am
I would like to know how to trim a frame member to the contour of a non-frame member. I have an extruded component and can not trim the frame to that extruded component.
 
I would also like to see tips on how to layout your suspension points. I can manage but I feel there is a simpler way.
-Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 4:16pm
Ive watched these videos over and over in the past, they are such a great help! Thanks so muchThumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 9:46pm
Thanks for the heads up! The videos are good.

One thing which is an important issue that people can overlook - the fatigue analysis you can do on Solidworks is nice but is no substitute for real world testing. Solidworks cannot simulate the effects of environmental and manufacturing defects on products, which is a huge issue these days in all kinds of engineering. Given the time and cost constraints of the SAE Baja project, it is understandable that a team is not able to make a setup in-house to fatigue test a critical component in the vehicle to 100,000 - 200,000 cycles. It is not required by the rulebook either. But its nice to be appreciative of what real world products for public use must undergo to be stamped "safe for use". We're only prototypes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/11/2010 at 7:42am
Don't blame it on SolidWorks....there isn't a CAD or FEA software package out there that can simulate real world testing as well as actually performing the testing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/11/2010 at 12:12pm
You've misinterpreted the message. There's no blaming here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SolidWorks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/17/2010 at 4:03pm
Hey everyone!  We have completed the first video on weldments and frame modeling:
 
 
Hope you all enjoy.  If you have any questions, comments or suggestions leave them here or send me an email: sfaulkner at solidworks.com
 
Also, full disclosure that most of my background is in FSAE.  The new videos are all Baja specific.  Hopefully this means I won't make too many errors.  The last few weeks have been an adventure learning what many of your design constraints and criteria are.
 
Edit: Have updated the video to the revised version


Edited by SolidWorks - Sep/27/2010 at 12:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/17/2010 at 11:09pm
Just curious. You mention in the beginning that in Baja SAE, suspension pickups aren't as important as in FSAE. Please enlighten me. 
-Ron George
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pedro UFPBaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 1:03am
I appreciate the initiative, but the absurd claim that the suspension is less important for baja's structural design is completely wrong. 



Edited by Pedro UFPBaja - Sep/18/2010 at 4:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SolidWorks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 2:46am
Thank you for the feedback and sorry for the confusion.   I do see how that comes across wrong, and I will be changing that part of the video next week.  I will update the link when the video changes as well.

A little bit of explanation of what I was trying to say.  I was speaking specifically of what factors and criteria drive the design of the frame.  In FSAE, the design of the frame is heavily driven by suspension simulation and tire data.  The rules are also fairly relaxed and there is a lot of flexibility in the design. In talking with some Baja designers they mentioned that the Baja rules are more constraining and have a larger role in the early design process.

This difference can be seen between the FSAE and Baja videos.  With FSAE, I start with a wire frame of the final suspension.  With Baja, I started with the requirements in the rules and built from there.  The comment was in reference to this.

I was definitely not trying to say that suspension is less important to Baja.  Obviously this is not the case!  Suspension design is critical to building a competitive car.  Of course, I can see how that comment come across wrong.  As I said, I will be changing the video and removing the comment.

Thanks again for the prompt feedback everyone.  And please keep it coming.  I am especially looking for suggestions for future topics.  We hope these videos will be a great resource to all the teams.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pedro UFPBaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 3:30am
The suspension geometry is very important for the design of the baja's cage too. 
The regulate height and width together with the suspension points are the primary inputs for the design of the baja's structure.
The baja design is more challenging in this aspect in relation to the FSAE, because the rule is much more restrictive and we have to keep in mind while attending to requirements of good suspension geometry (made from simulations of kinematics and motion). FSAE rule being more flexible, suited to get the requirements of the suspension much easier.
Your FSAE's tutorial is more appropriate at this point in relation to Baja SAE's because despite showing very well how to use the functions, encourages teams to make the great mistake of developing the suspension to suit the structure when the correct procedure is the opposite, as shown in the tutorial of FSAE.


Edited by Pedro UFPBaja - Sep/18/2010 at 5:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote João Araujo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 4:28am

We like to make the whole structure into a single 3D sketch, wich makes it easier to change parameters (we never used the first thing we designed, a lot of tuning in the process, so you can have the lightest, easier to build structure) so editing in context and the creation of relationships between parts are much more efficient to be done in assembly, so you only have to design once, the way you did it you can make it in context, but would be much more difficult, and with my experience, with a lot of errors.

I'd rather just create the planes inside the 3d sketch, making that, i can even remove a line from the plane if i need to.

 

This decision to make everything at once, makes it easier to change the order of what i did. so the lines will dependend on each other rather than being defined by the Firewall for instance.

 

Also, why design the whole structure when you can make half and then mirror it, the only tube is the LBD, wich you can Extend to the mirror, That save us a lot of time.

I saw the video on formula SAE, we use a technique to make the tabs, just make the sketch for the tab on the point of the geometry, and make it extruded, then cut extruded from the center plane.

The video is a good initiative, but i think you talked to the wrong people from Baja SAE before doing it (the Formula SAE is much more adequate than this one). I'm from brazil, at least here, all the top teams use Adams or similar software to analise the suspension and the structure is the last thing to design.

That's my opinion and ideas on this subject, hope it helps.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pedro UFPBaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 5:30am
Suggestions for next tutorials.

How to Draw transmission chains
How to Draw functional cv joints 
How to design flexible brake lines
How to design flexible boots


Edited by Pedro UFPBaja - Sep/18/2010 at 5:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by Pedro UFPBaja Pedro UFPBaja wrote:

The suspension geometry is very important for the design of the baja's cage too. 
The regulate height and width together with the suspension points are the primary inputs for the design of the baja's structure.
The baja design is more challenging in this aspect in relation to the FSAE, because the rule is much more restrictive and we have to keep in mind while attending to requirements of good suspension geometry (made from simulations of kinematics and motion). FSAE rule being more flexible, suited to get the requirements of the suspension much easier.
Your FSAE's tutorial is more appropriate at this point in relation to Baja SAE's because despite showing very well how to use the functions, encourages teams to make the great mistake of developing the suspension to suit the structure when the correct procedure is the opposite, as shown in the tutorial of FSAE.


For the most part, I think you just rehashed what Solidworks initially wrote. He brings up a good point. I haven't read the FSAE rulebook but there's too many design constraints imposed on the frame in Baja. That MAY or MAY NOT affect the freedom you have, to place suspension pickups.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by SolidWorks SolidWorks wrote:

A little bit of explanation of what I was trying to say.  I was speaking specifically of what factors and criteria drive the design of the frame.  In FSAE, the design of the frame is heavily driven by suspension simulation and tire data.  The rules are also fairly relaxed and there is a lot of flexibility in the design. In talking with some Baja designers they mentioned that the Baja rules are more constraining and have a larger role in the early design process.


Thanks for the clarification.

With any type of racing vehicle, off-road or on-road, you design the suspension from the tire up and all forces acting at wheel have to fed/dissipated into the chassis in an efficient manner. Besides, in both competitions, I'm pretty sure parameters like tire pressure substantially affect the handling of the vehicle ride height (that plays a role in suspension), as well as ride comfort.

Perhaps you haven't spoken with enough teams to get an idea of the amount of research that could potentially be devoted to a mini baja? If schools can go to the length of using laser scanners to obtain the geometry of the driver's back, or analyze the transient slip on CVT belts, or use MSC Adams to study mini baja dynamics, you could only imagine what some team out there with some talented minds would be trying to do with their suspension design.  One example that comes to mind is RIT.  After having spoken to a team member during the SC race, he mentioned how they'd go to the length of fitting force transducers with their own blackbox circuitry on their suspension arms during testing, then they'd collect data to use in their future design process. In short, its all being done...somewhere. Just because you don't hear it doesn't really mean its not being done. Now whether all this extra engineering is really beneficial is another question. Keep the tutorials coming! Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pedro UFPBaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by RonGeorge RonGeorge wrote:

 

For the most part, I think you just rehashed what Solidworks initially wrote. He brings up a good point. I haven't read the FSAE rulebook but there's too many design constraints imposed on the frame in Baja. That MAY or MAY NOT affect the freedom you have, to place suspension pickups.



I do not agree, he does not use any reference to the suspension geometry for the structure design and still maintains that it is not important. In my opinion this is completely wrong.
He does correctly in the design of FSAE's cage and deliberately chose not to use the points of suspension design baja. 


Edited by Pedro UFPBaja - Sep/18/2010 at 4:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Pedro UFPBaja Pedro UFPBaja wrote:


I do not agree, he does not use any reference to the suspension geometry for the structure design and still maintains that it is not important. In my opinion this is completely wrong.
He does correctly in the design of FSAE's cage and deliberately chose not to use the points of suspension design baja. 


I wonder if it is for the better or worse that there are no suspension geometry references in the Baja rulebook. On the good side, there appears to be much design freedom in BSAE and each team will design their suspension based upon what they have learnt and what they think is ultimately important. But then there are a bunch of frame rules to compensate for this lack of suspension constraints, so you can't simply do anything you wish, as the chassis package still has to be within the envelope of the frame rules.

If you open FSAE rules to section B6, check out the suspension design constraints they have. Minimums for rebound, jounce, ride height, wheel travel etc. have all been established. Their rules also state that tech inspectors must be able to see suspension pick-up points. BSAE has virtually nothing in this area.




Edited by RonGeorge - Sep/18/2010 at 7:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTomasko2011 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 7:24pm
Pedro-take it easy. Solidworks is doing us a huge favor by posting these videos. This makes it easier for us to teach the program to new members, and odds are we'll all learn a few new things ourselves. Just because you don't agree to the last detail what he thinks about our design process doesnt mean he doesn't know his stuff. The less s*** you give him, the more videos we're likely to get. This is why we can't have nice things!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote João Araujo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2010 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by wishin4snow wishin4snow wrote:

I would like to know how to trim a frame member to the contour of a non-frame member. I have an extruded component and can not trim the frame to that extruded component.
 
I would also like to see tips on how to layout your suspension points. I can manage but I feel there is a simpler way.

Just use cut extrude with the same sketch from the extrude. (and put it to only affect the member you want).

About the suspension points, tell a little about how you do it so we can help.

Originally posted by RonGeorge RonGeorge wrote:



I wonder if it is for the better or worse that there are no suspension geometry references in the Baja rulebook. On the good side, there appears to be much design freedom in BSAE and each team will design their suspension based upon what they have learnt and what they think is ultimately important. But then there are a bunch of frame rules to compensate for this lack of suspension constraints, so you can't simply do anything you wish, as the chassis package still has to be within the envelope of the frame rules.



It's for the better, on Formula, they can change the engine, making that, they have more parameters to change, we can only improve the transmisson, suspension, an make the car as light as possible. You have to take in consideration the members, and the driver package, but that's nothing compared to making the suspension with the structure ready, anyone who analise on adams, know that the smallest change on the steering box can make all the difference in ackerman and in Toe variation.

Making the structure before the suspension is just bad engineering.

Originally posted by MTomasko2011 MTomasko2011 wrote:

Pedro-take it easy. Solidworks is doing us a huge favor by posting these videos. This makes it easier for us to teach the program to new members, and odds are we'll all learn a few new things ourselves. Just because you don't agree to the last detail what he thinks about our design process doesnt mean he doesn't know his stuff. The less s*** you give him, the more videos we're likely to get. This is why we can't have nice things!

The thing is, he know how to make it correctly, he did that on the Fsae video.

The videos indeed help a lot, but i'd still rather send the FSAE video over the baja one.

We only want to help, so the videos can be as best as possible, he asked for feedback, that's not only thank him, but constructive criticism also, show our opinion, and what we learned with our experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote João Araujo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/19/2010 at 1:13am
Another good idea, is to make all the tubes with the same dimension, on the same structural member, using groups, they arealdy get trimmed/extended, saving a lot of work (our structure have 1 3d Sketch, and 2 structural members (different tubes)).

then i just have to trim were the 1" tubes get in contact with the 1 1/4" tubes. (plus making tabs and things like that).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SolidWorks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2010 at 12:57am
Thanks everyone for all the great suggestions and feedback.  I have updated the link above with the revsied version of the video.  The only difference is that I revised the comment that created the controversy.
 
I will be posting here when the next video is done.  Hopefully in a couple weeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wishin4snow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/02/2010 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by João Araujo João Araujo wrote:

We like to make the whole structure into a single 3D sketch, wich makes it easier to change parameters (we never used the first thing we designed, a lot of tuning in the process, so you can have the lightest, easier to build structure) so editing in context and the creation of relationships between parts are much more efficient to be done in assembly, so you only have to design once, the way you did it you can make it in context, but would be much more difficult, and with my experience, with a lot of errors.

I'd rather just create the planes inside the 3d sketch, making that, i can even remove a line from the plane if i need to.

 

This decision to make everything at once, makes it easier to change the order of what i did. so the lines will dependend on each other rather than being defined by the Firewall for instance.

 



I decided to try and model a quick frame up in one 3D sketch like you said. I was having problems with constraining some features especially the RHO. When I try and constrain the lines to be symmetrical ( using midpoint) the 3D plane just rotates What am I missing?

I also noticed when I create a new plane, the dimension for the angle of the plane is blue. Suggesting the plane is not fully constrained. Any suggestions to fix this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote João Araujo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/02/2010 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by wishin4snow wishin4snow wrote:

Originally posted by João Araujo João Araujo wrote:

We like to make the whole structure into a single 3D sketch, wich makes it easier to change parameters (we never used the first thing we designed, a lot of tuning in the process, so you can have the lightest, easier to build structure) so editing in context and the creation of relationships between parts are much more efficient to be done in assembly, so you only have to design once, the way you did it you can make it in context, but would be much more difficult, and with my experience, with a lot of errors.

I'd rather just create the planes inside the 3d sketch, making that, i can even remove a line from the plane if i need to.

 

This decision to make everything at once, makes it easier to change the order of what i did. so the lines will dependend on each other rather than being defined by the Firewall for instance.

 



I decided to try and model a quick frame up in one 3D sketch like you said. I was having problems with constraining some features especially the RHO. When I try and constrain the lines to be symmetrical ( using midpoint) the 3D plane just rotates What am I missing?

I also noticed when I create a new plane, the dimension for the angle of the plane is blue. Suggesting the plane is not fully constrained. Any suggestions to fix this?

You have to constrain the plane like any other element on a sketch, put the line for the tube on the floor along the X axis, then put the angle between the new plane and the front plane, another thing, if you click twice on the plane, you can work inside the plane. Also the plane maybe blue if the distance to de origin is not constrained, i start with the floor tube of the firewall, so you can put a distance from it to the front plane and top plane also.

The reference you take to create the plane defines the X and Y axis inside it, (vertical and horizontal), make this: take the line of the floor again (after put it on the X axis of the 3d sketch), and, working inside the plane, put it as Horizontal, that will not allow the plane to rotate.

And i suggest you design only one side of the chassis, if its symmetrical, after you made the tubes, you can just mirror it, that saves some time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SolidWorks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2010 at 2:32am
Hey Everyone,
 
Here is the latest video:
 
 
Hope it helps you all out.  Let me know if you have suggestions for future videos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SolidWorks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/10/2010 at 1:25am
Hi All,
 
Here is the next video in the series:
 
Please send me any suggestions you might have.  This video doesn't directly relate to a Baja design process, but we would like to cover more of those topics.  Email me at sfaulkner at solidworks.com
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Points: 604
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeiB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/10/2010 at 2:01pm
thanks, cool tips. We dont use solidworks but I like to know what solidworks can do and try to replicate it so keep them coming Thumbs Up
Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing
2009-2011 Captain
minibaja.mcgill.ca
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João Araujo View Drop Down
Milling Master
Milling Master


Joined: Feb/07/2009
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 61
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote João Araujo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/10/2010 at 5:03pm
I think a good lesson would be a top-down suspension design with the geometry.
UFPBaja Team - Brazil
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