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Rules Changes for 2012

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dillon_b12 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 11:46am
If you had it your way, what would get changed for next year?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 12:43pm

Change the brake lock up test to a stopping distance competition.  Cars must travel a known set speed, and initiate stop at a line, whoever stops the shortest wins.  If you can't stop within a pre-defined window you don't pass tech.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 12:59pm
Good idea in theory, but what speed?  How do you maintain said speed?  What if certain cars can't reach said speed?

I think perhaps a better test would be a maximum braking potential event where an accelerometer or perhaps just a high resolution speed measurement device records the maximum deceleration of the vehicle.  This way you just have to meet a threshold of deceleration with the car.  Maybe this could be a 30 point event or something, but you'd see most teams grouped closely together at or near lockup so it would be nearly meaningless as far as the current field is concerned.

Although the dynamic brake check has proven difficult for some teams to pass throughout the years it is not a particularly hard feat.  I think it is the best way to quickly and effectively check the braking potential of a car.  Is it overkill?  Probably, but it's simple, effective, and requires virtually no resources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 1:18pm
What is it with people wanting to get competitive with the fun-takeawayers aka brakes! I don't recall a time in my life when I hit the brakes and thought dam that was awesome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paasch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by dillon_b12 dillon_b12 wrote:

If you had it your way, what would get changed for next year?

First, I'd add Presentation to all three competitions.  I'd Baja-ize it, no powerpoints, just a half dozen or so posters similar to what teams do in Design.  Make it 75 points.  I know a lot of students don't like this event, but it's one of the preparations you can get for life as an working engineer in industry.

I still think the "Top 10 redesign" rule is bogus.    This supposedly "levels the playing field" but the top teams are still the top teams, and the top cars still look like they always have: OSU cars still look like OSU cars, ETS cars still look like ETS cars, RIT cars still look like RIT cars, etc.  If Laval makes major changes to that car for next year they're crazy Smile.    TTU changed up a lot when they decided to get serious about winning more than water events (Smile for Chris), but they're an exception.   Teams are forced to make changes whether they have data supporting the change or not, and that's not good engineering.  

I'd drop Cost to 75 points, and I'd make the calculated cost no more than 40% of that like in Formula.  Better yet, drop it to 20% like FS Germany.  Give the report more points.  Move the "Feasibility for mass production" judging  from Design to Cost and make it  the focus of the event.



Edited by paasch - Jun/27/2011 at 1:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kick_Rennedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 2:19pm
Less of the put all the fast cars out front for the start of endurance. I mean, I see the reasoning behind that, but a team that starts close to the end is always lapped at least once before they touch the track.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Kick_Rennedy Kick_Rennedy wrote:

Less of the put all the fast cars out front for the start of endurance. I mean, I see the reasoning behind that, but a team that starts close to the end is always lapped at least once before they touch the track.

The staggered starts some competitions have used don't help this phenomenon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 3:38pm
Changes I'd like to see (but won't):

-Change acceleration to a 150% rule.  Meaning that any car with a time greater than 1.5x the fastest time gets a zero.  I posted a thread on this last year, it still makes sense.  This would make the acceleration event mean something again.

-Add dual staging lights (ahead of and behind front tire) to the acceleration event so that cars must stage in a consistent position, even though this has helped me more than hurt me :)

-Allow ANY unmodified OEM CVT cover without equivalency calcs.

-Allow plastic/composite removable gas tank containers.

-Limit the cost event to 50 points for the report and prototype cost and create a new "Manufacturability and Mass Production" event worth the other 50 points which breaks those components out of the design event and uses a second, 10 minute design-style presentation.  Use the format for all 3 events and eliminate the sales presentation which I believe is purely an exercise in bullsh*t and does little to nothing to teach you about real world cost analysis and presentations.

-Automatic return of design report and design presentation scoring sheets at the event.

-Enforce 95th percentile male stipulation in the rules, or perhaps mandate a minimum 90th percentile.  It's a source of constant frustration to see "mini-cars" which skate by on clearance rules with a 5' 5" featherweight class driver when you've built a car that normal sized people can comfortably drive.

That's all I can think of for now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

Changes I'd like to see (but won't):

-Add dual staging lights (ahead of and behind front tire) to the acceleration event so that cars must stage in a consistent position, even though this has helped me more than hurt me :)

Agreed.  This could go for all dynamic events though, and more than once I've seen timed scoring done by stop watch. Cry

-Allow plastic/composite removable gas tank containers.

+1000.  The tank itself is plastic...LOL

-Automatic return of design report and design presentation scoring sheets at the event.

+1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:



-Allow ANY unmodified OEM CVT cover without equivalency calcs.
This rule doesn't make sense. Reedy for PresidentWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote p.lewis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by dillon_b12 dillon_b12 wrote:

Originally posted by Kick_Rennedy Kick_Rennedy wrote:

Less of the put all the fast cars out front for the start of endurance. I mean, I see the reasoning behind that, but a team that starts close to the end is always lapped at least once before they touch the track.

The staggered starts some competitions have used don't help this phenomenon.
 
I didn't think this would be a rules change, then I got out my copy and checked. D5.3.2 says that we start the race simultaneously when the starter releases the first car onto the track. WHOA! Fortunately, I don't think that's how they have actually done it. Instead I'm pretty sure that they take care of individual car times using the transponder system.
 
On a very short and/or fast endurance course the start delay from first car to last can be way too long. I'm thinking of Carolina 2010 which ran ~20 minutes over because it took that long to get people on the track while the leaders completed multiple laps. I don't think we had anything quite that bad this year.
 
Assuming D5.3.2 isn't actually observed, I can't see why it matters for your score as long as your official start time begins when you cross the transponder wire. OK, actually I can see how the leaders can get roadblocked by cars entering the course and getting an unfair disadvantage as they're delayed by cars who have not even started the race. This is a tough problem.
 
No matter how you slice it, our courses are often too short to start everybody before the leaders make it around after their first lap. The courses are short because of the number of course workers we need due to the insurance policy (at least 1 per 100', IIRC, paraphrased from somebody who quoted the requirement on the forum earlier). Maybe we don't need better starts, but instead we need longer or slower courses? More bus-stops and chicanes? More whoops and rhythm sections? More serpentine sections to pack more track in with fewer courseworkers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 6:12pm
I dont mind the staggered starts. It avoids the major bottlenecks on the first few laps when theres mass chaos going on. To me, it rewards the fast cars by giving them an advantage on the start which they deserve. Most tracks cannot handle 100 plus cars with drivers hopped up on energy drinks going full boar into the first few turns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/27/2011 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by ErikHardy ErikHardy wrote:

I dont mind the staggered starts. It avoids the major bottlenecks on the first few laps when theres mass chaos going on. To me, it rewards the fast cars by giving them an advantage on the start which they deserve. Most tracks cannot handle 100 plus cars with drivers hopped up on energy drinks going full boar into the first few turns.
 
+1
FYI it is up to the organizers on how to start the race, of course there is some input by Sam and Tech. Inspectors.
 
We were going to do a single file line angled at a 45 all the way around the track but then we realized it would have been insane in the bowl so we opted for the 2x staggered start. I don't think anyone got lapped before they started the race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ffriolet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 10:26am
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

-Enforce 95th percentile male stipulation in the rules, or perhaps mandate a minimum 90th percentile.  It's a source of constant frustration to see "mini-cars" which skate by on clearance rules with a 5' 5" featherweight class driver when you've built a car that normal sized people can comfortably drive.
 
I agree with you Chris on this change, it's frustrating to see that some team force their design so the cockpit will respect this rule and be ergonomic to the 95th percentile.

 

So normally, the frame/cockpit inspection should be done with a 95th percentile model, but you know that a lots of team barely pass the frame test with an tiny driver. So it'll be complicated to penalize team that didn't pass it. Should it be a technical fail, or just a design DNF for not respecting the competition requirement or simply a scoring penalty.

 

To test it, do you use a human model that will enter each car?

I'm in to reinforce the inspection of this requirement, but how to do it will be complicated.



Edited by ffriolet - Jun/28/2011 at 4:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red_Beard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 10:40am
Originally posted by ErikHardy ErikHardy wrote:

I dont mind the staggered starts. It avoids the major bottlenecks on the first few laps when theres mass chaos going on. To me, it rewards the fast cars by giving them an advantage on the start which they deserve. Most tracks cannot handle 100 plus cars with drivers hopped up on energy drinks going full boar into the first few turns.


We did a semi "shot gun" start at SDSMT in 2007, and the first turn/dip was pretty rough.  Cars ended up upside down, tires inside of cockpits, and if i'm not mistaken I think one car hit a tree, but not many cars got lapped the first time around.  To make it work well you need a relatively long section (1/8 mile ?) of track that slowly narrows in so the cars have time to settle into their positions relative to each others speed.  We tried to account for this, but it still wasn't long enough.  In all the baja competitions I've been to this start was the best to watch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 10:57am
I enjoyed the Auburn '09 start with the funnel running into the course.  I was towards the front so I didn't see much chaos, so I may not have an accurate picture of how good/bad it was.
 
I have often thought about a caution lap following a pace car in a single file line, then a green flag go... but many courses wouldn't work for this due to obstacles requiring speed to maneuver and the inevitable cars breaking on the first lap.


Edited by collinskl1 - Jun/28/2011 at 10:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 11:52am
Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

I enjoyed the Auburn '09 start with the funnel running into the course.  I was towards the front so I didn't see much chaos, so I may not have an accurate picture of how good/bad it was.
 
I have often thought about a caution lap following a pace car in a single file line, then a green flag go... but many courses wouldn't work for this due to obstacles requiring speed to maneuver and the inevitable cars breaking on the first lap.


RIT did this in 2007 and it seemed to work pretty well. However, like you said, it would depend on the course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 12:12pm

The RIT style courses, or midnight mayhem, could pull it off with some care around the bowl.  They could even count the pace lap in everyone's score haha.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

The RIT style courses, or midnight mayhem, could pull it off with some care around the bowl.  They could even count the pace lap in everyone's score haha.


We did a pace lap at the first Midnight Mayhem and it was a nightmare.  Big hills, prepped(wet) track, and no momentum caused a bunch of cars to get stuck on the hills.

Personally, I don't think land-rush starts are always the violent disasters everyone is describing.  We do it every year at Midnight Mayhem and I don't think I've seen a real crash yet.  There is some definite beating and banging, but nothing catastrophic.  We use the track's motocross gates to launch everyone at the same time.  Of course, we are talking smaller numbers here, but last year had ~35 cars and our "funnel" is much shorter than what most sanctioned races could pull off if they chose.

Staggered starts aren't awful provided that each row is launched very shortly after the next one. In Wisconsin '09, people were getting lapped.  I'll have to check my footage from Illinois this year, but it seemed like, at the time, people were getting lapped there as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kick_Rennedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 3:18pm
From where I sat by Pit row, I counted a lap between the first out of the gates, and the last to start. At least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 3:28pm
Dillon we took off near last at Illinois this year and didn't get lapped until a few laps in
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kick_Rennedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 3:41pm
Huh, I must be confusing cars then.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayalex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 4:06pm
You don't need to do a full pace lap for a launch start. Just something enough long and easy on cars so all cars can have a steady pace and make it alive(like 1.5-2 time the length of the line-up for a stagerred start)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NTripp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:


create a new "Manufacturability and Mass Production" event worth the other 50 points which breaks those components out of the design event and uses a second, 10 minute design-style presentation. 

Completely agree. The way these topics are integrated into the design presentation doesn't make any sense. One category this year was Structural Design, Feasibility for Mass Production and Operator Comfort lumped together. It doesn't allow for an adequate treatment of cost analysis and production considerations. (Although some of these are sort of covered in the sales presentation)
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:


-Automatic return of design report and design presentation scoring sheets at the event.

Getting the design report scoresheet back in Illinois and Kansas this year was great. Talked to the guy from Polaris heading up design judging in Illinois and he was under the impression that presentation scores were being made available to us. Personally I haven't seen anything posted. It would be great to receive more feedback rather than making guesses at what the judges liked.
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:


-Enforce 95th percentile male stipulation in the rules, or perhaps mandate a minimum 90th percentile.

Ergonomics should definitely be a much greater focus than it is now. I have a feeling this is one of the areas they'll work on to continue improving the competition.


Edited by NTripp - Jun/28/2011 at 4:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akron 1998 to 2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

Good idea in theory, but what speed?  How do you maintain said speed?  What if certain cars can't reach said speed?

I think perhaps a better test would be a maximum braking potential event where an accelerometer or perhaps just a high resolution speed measurement device records the maximum deceleration of the vehicle.  This way you just have to meet a threshold of deceleration with the car.  Maybe this could be a 30 point event or something, but you'd see most teams grouped closely together at or near lockup so it would be nearly meaningless as far as the current field is concerned.

Although the dynamic brake check has proven difficult for some teams to pass throughout the years it is not a particularly hard feat.  I think it is the best way to quickly and effectively check the braking potential of a car.  Is it overkill?  Probably, but it's simple, effective, and requires virtually no resources.

Just use the fancy radar gun to determine how many G's of deceleration the brakes generate and award points accordingly.  There should definitely be points, not just a pass / no pass.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akron 1998 to 2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 4:42pm

If you guys don’t want to get lapped on the first lap, try building a better car instead of complaining about the starting line up.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spurdozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 5:13pm

Guys my team member asked the baja sae contact team about the availabilty of baja SAE 2012 rules. This is what he got.


Hello,

I want to ask , when will the Rule book for Baja SAE (Illinois) for 2012 will be updated on your site ?
And which city of Illinois , will it take place in 2012 ?

Thank You,
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Saad,
The schedule of events next year will be in Auburn, Portland, and Wisconsin (tentatively scheduled) for Baja there will be no Illinois site next year. The rules will be posted later this summer on our website: http://students.sae.org/competitions/bajasae/rules/
Please check back in august for official dates/locations/rules for the 2012 Baja Season.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 5:29pm
Yeah, by the way the 2012 rules are the 2011 rules with little if any modifications.

Thats why I started my post with "Changes I'd like to see, but won't" haha.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeiB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 5:31pm
I think the rules committee is going to add a rule for suspended seat...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akron 1998 to 2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 5:51pm

I think they should add a static tilt test like in SAE formula.  Put the car on a platform and tilt it at an angle till it either slides off the platform or 2 tires lift off the ground indicating a roll over.  Points awarded for the highest angle a car can be tilted.  It's a measure of potential lateral G's.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeiB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Akron 1998 to 2004 Akron 1998 to 2004 wrote:

I think they should add a static tilt test like in SAE formula.  Put the car on a platform and tilt it at an angle till it either slides off the platform or 2 tires lift off the ground indicating a roll over.  Points awarded for the highest angle a car can be tilted.  It's a measure of potential lateral G's.


Until this happens


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 7:01pm
Everyone here keeps talking about how things should be made into events. You say brake check should be an event and now tilt test should not only be a tech category but also an event. I completely disagree. For one, dynamic day hectic enough as is. I wouldn't want to add two more events on top of that. Next, there is no feasible way to consistently measure a brake check- fancy radar gun included. The radar gun would have to hit each car in exactly the same location to be accurate. Not only that but you are deriving acceleration from velocity, something not to be taken lightly.

As far as tilt you could build a car that would be awesome at passing a tilt test but it would absolutly suck on the track. Cars need high ground clearance. To do well at a tilt test you would inevitably be giving this up. You say it would be a measure of lateral G's but in many cases a car will loose traction long before it reaches a lateral acceleration limit. We don't need to Formulify our competition.

Originally posted by Akron 1998 to 2004 Akron 1998 to 2004 wrote:

If you guys don’t want to get lapped on the first lap, try building a better car instead of complaining about the starting line up.


Really? Really?? Are you trying to get some award for ass of the year? Since we started at the very beginning of the pack at Illinois (and was quickly over taken by UMBC) I guess I will use my starting line resume to file a complaint. I don't like the staggered line up start. I thought they nailed it pretty well at Washington last year. Still a staggered start but the cars were lined up 10 wide. Everyone got out quick, there was minimal carnage andit was exciting for the crowd to watch who would get the holeshot each time. I also liked it a lot more when endurance starting was based on overall dynamic, not acceleration. I for one will say that we throw in the lightest girl that we can find for acceleration. They got 40 or 50 lbs on me. That means our car is not going to accelerate nearly the same at the start of endurance race as an accel run.

(/rant)

Also, I'm with Chris on the driver ergo thing despite the fact that I don't think our recent cars would fair so well in that category. We can fit in a 6'4" guy but just barely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soccerdan7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 7:11pm
Sadly, I think the days of the suspended seats are behind us. Jason and the techs gave us a hard time for the past 2 years with it even though quite a few teams have had them for a couple years now. I am hoping that they change it to an equivalency rule as opposed to outlawed entirely. Proving tensile equivalency to a seatbelt or some other standard would be enforceable just like chain guards, etc. I would hate to see the rules committee take the easy road of just outlawing them and potentially stifling design. Our seat is way lighter and more comfortable than the old carbon fiber one we made and we did a ton of tensile tests on all the materials and sewn joints to make sure it won't break or endanger the driver.

The acceleration scoring really should be changed. As Chris said a simple cutoff would require negligible extra work and make the event meaningful again. Placing well in acceleration simply isn't important anymore. Gearing for endurance is so much more important with the current system.

Water event: don't need it, enough said

Lastly, I hope all of the frame rules are crystal clear upfront. I know a lot of teams scrambled last year with the definitions of LCs and FLCs when the rules were reworded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T_Patn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by tp tp wrote:

 I thought they nailed it pretty well at Washington last year. Still a staggered start but the cars were lined up 10 wide. Everyone got out quick, there was minimal carnage andit was exciting for the crowd to watch who would get the holeshot each time. I also liked it a lot more when endurance starting was based on overall dynamic, not acceleration.

(/rant)



Total agreement on the Washington start. We weren't there but from the helmet cam footage I saw from Pomona it looked awesome. Also I hate accel determining start order. We got stuck in the middle of the pack in South Carolina because of that. If it had been base on say s&t we would have been 6th. An overall dynamic would be the way to go in my opinion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 7:23pm
Really, I think BajaSAE should go to King of the Hammers style rules. The basic idea is as long as your roll cage meets the rules your fine. If you hurt yourself it's your own damn fault.


I get excited every time I read through that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by tp tp wrote:

As far as tilt you could build a car that would be awesome at passing a tilt test but it would absolutly suck on the track. Cars need high ground clearance. To do well at a tilt test you would inevitably be giving this up. You say it would be a measure of lateral G's but in many cases a car will loose traction long before it reaches a lateral acceleration limit. We don't need to Formulify our competition.
Not to mention that cars with coil overs would have a serious disadvantage compared to the gas shocks as they pimp out into lowriders before the tilt test. And theres almost never a flat corner in baja or any offroad racing event throwing the lateral acceleration limit to the wayside with that big whoop mid corner
 
Certaintly agree with endurance starting order based on overall dynamic events as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 8:02pm
Tom, you're high if you think SAE can let a bunch of students just go at it with minimal rules haha.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by Akron 1998 to 2004 Akron 1998 to 2004 wrote:

If you guys don’t want to get lapped on the first lap, try building a better car instead of complaining about the starting line up.


I'm the guy that started the complaining.  We were 3rd in accel, which put us 3rd in grid.  I'm not complaining for us, but for the guys in the back who get screwed because of a bad accel score.  

I agree that a overall dynamics score would be better, and yes that would have put us further back in line.

Akron, since when is acceleration(the only factor that determined grid location at Illinois) the only measure of a good car??

Originally posted by Soccerdan7 Soccerdan7 wrote:

Water event: don't need it, enough said
 Clap


Edited by dillon_b12 - Jun/28/2011 at 9:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadgerMilk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 10:07pm
Personally, I've seen some rules that seem to stifle innovation and/or creativity for the sake of... well, nothing.  For example:  why stipulate that all drivetrain control electronics have to be powered off of a stock alternator?  I'm not saying it's at all a good idea to do this in Baja, but let's say you have an electrically-controlled pneumatic shifter.  Per the rules, that would have to be powered by a Briggs stock alternator.  I simply don't see the reason.  There's no safety risk - lose electrics, you can't shift.  Sucks to be driving THAT car, but you've still got brakes, steering, and throttle control...  I fail to see the issue.  There's a few other similarly confining rules that aren't "leveling the playing field" in any way and don't make anything any safer.

But, more importantly, I agree with Dan - "Water event: don't need it, enough said."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/28/2011 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by BadgerMilk BadgerMilk wrote:

Personally, I've seen some rules that seem to stifle innovation and/or creativity for the sake of... well, nothing.  For example:  why stipulate that all drivetrain control electronics have to be powered off of a stock alternator?  I'm not saying it's at all a good idea to do this in Baja, but let's say you have an electrically-controlled pneumatic shifter.  Per the rules, that would have to be powered by a Briggs stock alternator.  I simply don't see the reason.  There's no safety risk - lose electrics, you can't shift.  Sucks to be driving THAT car, but you've still got brakes, steering, and throttle control...  I fail to see the issue.  There's a few other similarly confining rules that aren't "leveling the playing field" in any way and don't make anything any safer.

But, more importantly, I agree with Dan - "Water event: don't need it, enough said."


Because otherwise you'd have cars that are "racecars" before they are consumer vehicles as the competition intends.  Remember this is an engineering competition, not a race series.  Without this stipulation you'd have battery powered systems that only have enough charge to last a a race and aren't sustainable for anywhere/anytime use.

Running a Briggs alternator is not a big deal at all.  We did it in 2010 for the power steering and the car was still fast with it.  It's a trade for that tiny amount of power you sap off the engine for the advantage you reap by adding whatever electronic system.  I don't see an issue with the alternator rule.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kick_Rennedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 8:58am
Because otherwise you'd have cars that are "racecars" before they are consumer vehicles as the competition intends.  Remember this is an engineering competition, not a race series.  Without this stipulation you'd have battery powered systems that only have enough charge to last a a race and aren't sustainable for anywhere/anytime use.

Then how come there's not nearly as much emphasis on the engineering aspect of it? I mean, deign is good and all, but that won't win you a top ten spot. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 9:56am
Wacko
 
Really?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 10:29am
Originally posted by Kick_Rennedy Kick_Rennedy wrote:

Because otherwise you'd have cars that are "racecars" before they are consumer vehicles as the competition intends.  Remember this is an engineering competition, not a race series.  Without this stipulation you'd have battery powered systems that only have enough charge to last a a race and aren't sustainable for anywhere/anytime use.

Then how come there's not nearly as much emphasis on the engineering aspect of it? I mean, deign is good and all, but that won't win you a top ten spot. 


I'm not saying it doesn't become mostly a race, but the intent of the competition is to promote the design and engineering of the vehicles.  The rule in question is just one way to keep the races from devolving into plain old races (Yes the irony is palpable, I know).

You're right that the design event alone won't win you a spot in the top 10, but on the flip side of that coin, you won't win a top 3 spot anymore without at least a good showing in design, if not a trip to design finals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akron 1998 to 2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 10:29am
Originally posted by tp tp wrote:

Everyone here keeps talking about how things should be made into events. You say brake check should be an event and now tilt test should not only be a tech category but also an event. I completely disagree. For one, dynamic day hectic enough as is. I wouldn't want to add two more events on top of that. Next, there is no feasible way to consistently measure a brake check- fancy radar gun included. The radar gun would have to hit each car in exactly the same location to be accurate. Not only that but you are deriving acceleration from velocity, something not to be taken lightly.

As far as tilt you could build a car that would be awesome at passing a tilt test but it would absolutly suck on the track. Cars need high ground clearance. To do well at a tilt test you would inevitably be giving this up. You say it would be a measure of lateral G's but in many cases a car will loose traction long before it reaches a lateral acceleration limit. We don't need to Formulify our competition.

You don't need to make a separate event for braking.  In the past Acceleration, Top Speed, and Braking got measured in a single event.  Originally they scored it with light beams and tape measure.  By 2004 they used a radar gun that did it all.  We purchased the same exact model of radar gun, it works great.  I don't know why they stopped scoring Top Speed and Braking.

 

After 50 something roll-overs at the last event (I assume a fair amount happened in a turn), some kind of tilt/roll over test might be appropriate.  I suggested the tilt table since it could be done on the Static Design Judging day.  I don’t think anyone is going as vertical as that formula car.  Also, they forgot to use the safety restraint “OOPPS!”

 

The competition can’t end in a 100 car tie.

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ffriolet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 10:36am
Speaking about design event change. It's should be nice that design evaluation was more objectif and constant.
 
Why is it possible to have 2 evalutation with 46/50 and one with 25/50? Why is it possible that your mistakes are:
-team name not written (Just look the main page)
-team member list not include (Just look the main page)
-page not numbered (Just look the down right of the page)
-You don't speak abour car dynamics (heuu Wacko)
-Your report is too theorical, your report isn't enought theorical (On the same evaluation, on the same line)
-You speak too much about customer needs and not enough about perfomance for race (Read the rules Wacko)
 
The design presentation have some issues too. How can you speak about servisability when the judge only want to speak about the warranty when the customer don't respect the oil change standart... Or speak about car dynamics with someone who don't know what is a rollcenter....
 
Those are just some exemple, lots of teams can told us other incoherence in the event or judging.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Akron 1998 to 2004 Akron 1998 to 2004 wrote:

After 50 something roll-overs at the last event (I assume a fair amount happened in a turn), some kind of tilt/roll over test might be appropriate.  I suggested the tilt table since it could be done on the Static Design Judging day.  I don’t think anyone is going as vertical as that formula car.  Also, they forgot to use the safety restraint “OOPPS!”

 

The competition can’t end in a 100 car tie.

 


The vast majority of rollovers in the recent competitions (especially Illinois 11 and Oregon 09 come to mind) are front endos.  While the good old TTU style side flop is still somewhat popular, I wouldn't say that it's a real problem that needs addressing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 10:43am
Originally posted by ffriolet ffriolet wrote:

Speaking about design event change. It's should be nice that design evaluation was more objectif and constant.
 
Why is it possible to have 2 evalutation with 46/50 and one with 25/50? Why is it possible that your mistakes are:
-team name not written (Just look the main page)
-team member list not include (Just look the main page)
-page not numbered (Just look the down right of the page)
-You don't speak abour car dynamics (heuu Wacko)
-Your report is too theorical, your report isn't enought theorical (On the same evaluation, on the same line)
-You speak too much about customer needs and not enough about perfomance for race (Read the rules Wacko)
 
The design presentation have some issues too. How can you speak about servisability when the judge only want to speak about the warranty when the customer don't respect the oil change standart... Or speak about car dynamics with someone who don't know what is a rollcenter....
 
Those are just some exemple, lots of teams can told us other incoherence in the event or judging.


You make some very good points!  The only reason I haven't brought this up is because I don't have any good idea on how to fix the problems!  I'm going to post another thread about the design report scores and the inconsistency there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeiB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 10:44am
Originally posted by Akron 1998 to 2004 Akron 1998 to 2004 wrote:

In the past Acceleration, Top Speed, and Braking got measured in a single event.  


What happens if your brakes don't actually work properly in this event?

It just can't work...I do not think there is a lot of performance that can be gained during braking. I rarely use the brakes during endurance...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 10:56am
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

Originally posted by Akron 1998 to 2004 Akron 1998 to 2004 wrote:

After 50 something roll-overs at the last event (I assume a fair amount happened in a turn), some kind of tilt/roll over test might be appropriate.  I suggested the tilt table since it could be done on the Static Design Judging day.  I don’t think anyone is going as vertical as that formula car.  Also, they forgot to use the safety restraint “OOPPS!”

 

The competition can’t end in a 100 car tie.

 


The vast majority of rollovers in the recent competitions (especially Illinois 11 and Oregon 09 come to mind) are front endos.  While the good old TTU style side flop is still somewhat popular, I wouldn't say that it's a real problem that needs addressing.
 
People need to learn how to drive over the certain obstacles, crawling over a 2' drop-off isn't going to work. We had 3 cars testing the illinois track, one high CG and we didn't have any problems. FYI if we host again it is going to be a similar set-up.
 
 
Originally posted by ffriolet ffriolet wrote:

Speaking about design event change. It's should be nice that design evaluation was more objectif and constant.
 
Why is it possible to have 2 evalutation with 46/50 and one with 25/50? Why is it possible that your mistakes are:
-team name not written (Just look the main page)
-team member list not include (Just look the main page)
-page not numbered (Just look the down right of the page)
-You don't speak abour car dynamics (heuu Wacko)
-Your report is too theorical, your report isn't enought theorical (On the same evaluation, on the same line)
-You speak too much about customer needs and not enough about perfomance for race (Read the rules Wacko)
 
The design presentation have some issues too. How can you speak about servisability when the judge only want to speak about the warranty when the customer don't respect the oil change standart... Or speak about car dynamics with someone who don't know what is a rollcenter....
 
Those are just some exemple, lots of teams can told us other incoherence in the event or judging.
 
I did 13 out of 115 grades on Design reports for our event, it all depends on what the person expects from you design report. We had 2 people grade each report and then the score was averaged, so that is probably why you are seeing the conflicting comments. Everyone has a different interpertation, even if we use a rubric to grade the report. I have a lot of experience in baja so I am going to grade the report differently then someone with no experience, tell you the truth I was probably harder on the reports then the average non-baja person, but I left a ton of feedback on what I would fix and work on.
 
After reading and grading 13 reports I will not ever volunteer for more then that, it is the sh*ttiest job I could imagine and it took forever, but I still put in the effort and grade all of the report I did with the same standard.
 
What would you do to change the design report?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/29/2011 at 11:05am
They want to see all 4 wheels lock during braking, going into a 4 wheel skid is not the fastest way to stop it would have to be one or the other
 
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