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Rule changes you'd like to see

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CLReedy21 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/23/2009 at 3:29pm
As far as threads goes we've always used and usually successfully negotiated that if you can hang a fingernail on 2 threads then it's good.

On the starter I remember reading the thread and there was mention of using it in the sled pull competition to add power as the motor was bogging down at the end of the run.  While this seems somewhat far fetched and I don't think it would work in practice it has been prohibited by NTI's just in case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/23/2009 at 3:45pm
The fingernail technique was how they checked us in Peoria. The tech said, "You're lucky I didn't cut my fingernails this morning. " I would be fine with them checking them that way. In Wisconsin they wanted two FULL threads as in 720 degrees of thread. I think that's where the problem arises because two full threads means you really have about 2.5-3 threads that you could catch a fingernail on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/23/2009 at 6:38pm
I heard from a little birdie that the rule is getting clarified to say that two threads is 720 degrees of thread instead of the varying definitions we have now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thompm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/23/2009 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by JB JB wrote:

 
But things like that happen every year, because many of the tech inspectors aren't very familiar with the rules, and they're just going by the checklist.  The checklist just hits the high spots.  I have spotted major violations on cars (that has passed tech) I was looking at within 20 or 30 seconds that none of the tech guys caught. 


JB, I know most of the tech inspectors very well and I can guarantee that at least 95% of them(100% of the ones that I know personally) I have read these rules may times over.  These volunteers are striving to give everyone a better competition.  At every competition these Judges become aware of the ambiguity of some of the rules and try to fix them for the next season.

What major violations are you talking about?

If they are missed its because they are running through the checklist trying to get teams through tech as quickly as possible, and if there is something not on the tech sheet that they may question they have a rule book to check it, as should every team captain as they go through tech.

also remember that this thread is about specific rule changes, not a place to hate on the tech inspectors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/24/2009 at 11:23am
I'm not trying to "hate" on the tech inspectors, I'm just explaining why some things that are obvious violations of the rules get through tech.  I think it's obvious that an electric starter would be prohibited, as that would easily be considered an engine modification.  But apparently, it got through tech at one of the events last year.
 
As far as the violations, honestly, they're too numerous to count.  The one I mentioned several posts back was about the transducer in the fuel tank to measure fuel level.  No question it was a violation, but throughout the tech process, several people looked at the car, and no one caught it.  As I mentioned, the transducer plumbed into the tank wasn't easy to see, but there was a light on the dash that was labeled LOW FUEL.  If it had been a snake, it would have bitten you.  Tank modifications have been prohbited forever, and even beyond that, the techs prohibited you from having a way to know the fuel level in the tank (that's one of many "unwritten" rules: it's not specified in the rule book, but it's voiced in the forums and other places by the tech inspectors).  In any case, this was an experienced team's car, so I'm sure they knew what the rules were.  That car also had a couple of more violations (although I can't recall what they were...the fuel tank mod was the biggest).  Jason Rounds also said that he doubted that I found 2 or 3 violations on some of these cars that passed through tech, but then I rattled off the car number and the violations, and then he apologized for that team getting through tech.  That was after the competition, so a lot of good that did anyone.
 
These kinds of things aren't hard to spot when you're looking.  As a student, I never noticed, but I was too worried about getting my own vehicle ready and making sure everything was perfect, so I wasn't really looking.
 
As an advisor, I had a chance to walk around during tech and really look over other cars.  It's pretty eye opening what you can see when you're not worried about getting your own team through tech or doing something else in preparation for the events.
 
The checklist is a good way to hit the high spots, but I think in the interest of making the tech inspection quicker, many things on the checklist can get missed.  "Car does NOT have an electric starter" is not on the checklist.  It's also not in the rules that the car can't use an electric starter.  But the general "no engine modifications" rule is what makes it illegal, and I think we all agree that something like that shouldn't be allowed.
 
Part of the problem is that the rules ARE ambiguous.  How many times has a rule been clarified, explained, or just flat out been issued from the forums, which is completely unofficial, and many teams don't even check?  Too often to count.  Did I recently see some discussion about allowing teams a way to observe fuel level in the tank on the forums?  I was thinking so....but, the rules don't mention any of that.


Edited by JB - Jul/24/2009 at 11:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/24/2009 at 5:47pm
I actually spoke to one team about their low fuel warning system. They did it without any modification to the tank whatsoever, using a float inside the tank and a magnetic pickup on the outside. Just because you never figured out a way to do it doesn't mean that everybody else is trying to cheat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/25/2009 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Kenneth Kenneth wrote:

I actually spoke to one team about their low fuel warning system. They did it without any modification to the tank whatsoever, using a float inside the tank and a magnetic pickup on the outside. Just because you never figured out a way to do it doesn't mean that everybody else is trying to cheat.
 
Oh, there are lots of ways to do it that don't violate the rules, and although we had considered using some sort of way to determine the fuel level, we just never deemed there to be a huge benefit.  Besides, how did they mount the float in the tank?  If they had to drill a mounting hole in the tank or the cap, then that's a rule violation. 
 
But plumbing a transducer into the tank IS a direct violation of the rules, there's no question there.  A top 10 team should no better, and the techs should have caught it.
 
EDIT:  also, even though I don't think it has ever been in the rules, in the past, the judges have prohibited any way for teams to gauge fuel level (either by a warning light or an actual gauge).


Edited by JB - Jul/25/2009 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/25/2009 at 12:43pm
I don't think there is any restriction on determining fuel level.

From FEI's dashboard, it looks like the three squares with 100%-0% near them is for fuel level.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/25/2009 at 4:55pm
JB, there really is no such thing as an "unwritten rule." If it's not in the rulebook, it can't be enforced. I don't even know what you're arguing anymore, because I already said that a team did it with NO MODIFICATION to the tank whatsoever. How did they get a float in? Well, it turns out that there's a cap that covers a huge hole in the top of the tank that they just dropped it in. The float was captured by the three tubes molded into the tank, and the pickup sat inside of one of those tubes. You're accusing teams of cheating just because you don't understand how they did something. Having a fuel light is not a rules violation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 2:23pm
No, it's not a rules violation.  But I know that teams in years past HAVE been prohibited from running fuel gauges/lights, even though it wasn't in the rules, and it never has been, as far as I can remember.
 
But, as we have discussed and demonstrated, there are things in the rules that are not enforced, so why would it be so out of the ordinary for there to be things enforced that aren't in the rules?  Besides, they tech inspectors have phrases in the rules that allow them to enforce anything they want, especially if they can establish some threat to safety (no matter how miniscule).
 
 
Quote

are we allowed to have fuel gauges this year?  Someone asked last year, and they prohibited it.  Is the fuel rule in effect this year at competition? (run out, out of race?)

 

Thanks

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It never has been in the rules, but in years past, it has been prohibited.  Obviously, they're taking different direction with the fuel level thing from what they did 3 or 4 years ago, even though the rules were the same then with respect to this.
 
And I'm not accusing anyone of cheating, I'm simply saying that plumbing a transducer into the tank is NOT allowed, and it DID get through tech inspection.  AND, it was done by a top ten 10 team, who no doubt knew the rules.  So you decide whether they were "cheating" or not.
 
The bottom line is, just like the electric starter, it got through tech inspection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thompm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 2:51pm
JB, unless there is a giant button that says start on it then the techs wont find an electric started mostly because none of them know what it looks like for the model 20 because its illegal.  And any top ten team that decided to try to cheat like that would know better then to openly display something of that nature and probably benifited them very little to take that big of a chance at getting DQ

As for the fuel issue its not debatable and as long as the tank is unmodified and posses no risk of injury then there are no grounds to disallow it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iwm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 5:04pm
I would really hope someone would notice an electric starter, most any tech should be familiar enough with the intek to notice anything on the engine that doesn't belong there.  And even if they dont catch it, the B&S engine techs absolutely would.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by thompm1 thompm1 wrote:

JB, unless there is a giant button that says start on it then the techs wont find an electric started mostly because none of them know what it looks like for the model 20 because its illegal. 
 
Are you implying that the average person wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an engine with an electric starter and one without one?  Much less the tech inspectors charged with enforcing the rules?  I diagree, and so does Jason Rounds:
 
Quote Your car was not legal to compete at Montreal and it should have been caught.   It was our mistake for not catching that and in the future we will make sure that does not get through. 

ELECTRIC START IS NOT ALLOWED ON BAJA CARS.

 
 
Technically, I view electric start as an engine modification, but if you take the perspective that it's not, then electric start isn't prohibited by the rules....but it's obviously not allowed.
 
Quote And any top ten team that decided to try to cheat like that would know better then to openly display something of that nature and probably benifited them very little to take that big of a chance at getting DQ
 
I don't think they would have gotten DQ'd.  It PASSED TECHNICAL INSPECTION.  Does anyone know of a team that DQ'd for something that passed tech inspection (notwithstanding things like final drive changes, etc.)?  If they HAD gotten caught at tech inspection, all they'd have to do is remove the starter (or in the case of the team that I mentioned that had a transducer plumbed into the tank, all they would have to do is switch tanks).  Many teams have had to add/remove something and go back through tech.

Quote As for the fuel issue its not debatable and as long as the tank is unmodified and posses no risk of injury then there are no grounds to disallow it. 
 
I agree, but in years past, they HAVE disallowed it, as per the links I posted above, with several teams having asked to be able to have some method to measure the fuel level, but being told NO by the techs.  And it has never been in the rules that measuring fuel level is not allowed.  I'm looking at the 2005 rules right now, which are covered by some of the posts from the SAE forum I liked above, and there's not a single word in here about prohibiting any method to measure the level in the tank.  As I said, there are many ways to do it without drilling a hole in the tank, and there are many ways to do it without putting anything IN the tank, or having anything that touches the tank (or even comes anywhere close).
 
Obviously, they're allowing it now (and based on the rules, they should be).  But they didn't allow it in the past, although the rules about the fuel tank have been laregly unchanged for years now.  So, the individual issue is mooot at this point, but it's an example of how the rule book says one thing, and what happens at the competition site can be different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 7:12pm
In my mind it falls on the Briggs tech guys to check over then engine and make sure that it is in spec e.g. stock.  It would stand to reason that when the team started it with a button instead of the pull rope for governor check I might notice it had a starter.  But either way with the tendency for tight packaging as of late I could see how a starter would be easy to miss.  It's not on the check sheet and I've never paid attention to whether or not there is one there.  Combine that with the fact that I'm not even totally sure where a starter would go on a Model 20 and it would be easy to sneak one by me.  If there were a box that says "no starter" on the tech sheet then it would be easy to enforce, since there are not that many places to hide a starter on a briggs and I know what a starter looks like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2009 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

In my mind it falls on the Briggs tech guys to check over then engine and make sure that it is in spec e.g. stock.  It would stand to reason that when the team started it with a button instead of the pull rope for governor check I might notice it had a starter. 
 
I think the Briggs guys are there simply to check the governor.  In the thread I linked about the starter......
 
Quote Our vehicle ran the electric starter at Montreal and we had no troubles with rules or tech.  The briggs reps liked it a lot, but it didnt help at all in the design evaluations.  In my opinion, the electric start is cool ann handy, but it really isnt worth the weight.
 
So the Briggs reps certainly saw it, and liked it, but the design judges didn't care, and certainly didn't ask how they got through tech.  I don't think these guys were trying to cheat, I think they simply viewed the electric starter as within the rules, so they did it.  That said, and to thompm1's point that he posted above, there very likely WAS a button the dash labeled START, and the tech's still didn't catch it.
 
Quote But either way with the tendency for tight packaging as of late I could see how a starter would be easy to miss.
 
Chris, I can't disagree with you there.  But, it's still no excuse, and it's the job of the techs to catch this stuff.
 
 
Quote It's not on the check sheet
 
I think that's what started this entire conversation.  There is a LOT of stuff that's not on the checklist, and those things will tend to fall through the cracks if the techs aren't careful.  I honestly think the rules were enforced better without the checklist since you simply had to go over the car looking for anything and everything.  Now, you look for items on the checklist, so you may miss items that aren't.
 
Quote If there were a box that says "no starter" on the tech sheet then it would be easy to enforce, since there are not that many places to hide a starter on a briggs and I know what a starter looks like.
 
I agree, but then the checklist would be 30 pages.  The rules need to be written so that there is less ambiguity about what is allowed and what isn't.  Like I said, I classify the electric starter as an "engine modification", but I can see where many people would not, given that "engine modifications" have typically been implied to mean mods to the engine (especially internally) that increase power.
 
Honestly, the techs doing the inspection need to be so familiar with the rules that they don't NEED a checklist.  I have seen teams show up to the competition that knew the rules WAY better than some of the techs, and I have seen teams show up to the competition that made me wonder if they had ever seen the rule book.  I remember one year where a team pitted next to us failed tech because they didn't have the required number cutouts on their car.  Not that the cut outs didn't meet the competition requirements...they didn't have them.  At all.  How do you do that?  It's black and white in the rules, and it has been enforced forever!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/27/2009 at 7:50am
Good points.  I think that the briggs techs should be in charge of the engine though, it would make sense for them to have a set of guidelines as to what's ok for the engines, plus they would be best able to check that since all the guarding and powertrain has to be disconnected for governor check. 

As far as the techs seeing the start button and not catching it this may be a case of a gray area rule that needs explicitly stated.  Ask me and I think a starter is ok since its a stock briggs part, but to Jason it modifies the engine and it's illegal.  The particular tech that saw it may have just not known the particular ruling on that.  Or maybe they just didn't see it.  It's not common for anybody to use a starter, and to be honest I really didn't consider the existence of such an item until it was brought up on the forum.  It makes sence since our genny has a model 20 with electric start thought :)  This combined with the ambiguity of the rules would make it easy for this to fall through the cracks.  Note that the current rules don't even explicitly state that you can only use one (1) engine, something that is being fixed this year.  It seems like a duh thing, but that would be one hell of an argument to lose to Jason on-site.

The techs, from what I've seen, are working toward making the rules as straightforward as possible, there are alot of small but good changes coming down the pipe this year, but just like any competitive event there are hundreds of people trying to figure out ways around, over, and under the rules so they'll never be just right.

As far as techs being so intimately familiar with the tech sheet that they don't need it is silly.  Even though I know every size of every fastener on the newest car and the proper way to beat, tap, nudge, and pursuade all the particular pieces together I still forget a thing or two here and there.  I've only seens the techs look silly a couple times, but you'll have that from time to time, they are humans too you know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TerpsRacing-Dan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/28/2009 at 9:58pm
Its funny, I've had Briggs techs ask my why no one modifies the motors before and suggested a few things to make it run better.  He was honestly surprised that it was against the rules, this was early on the first day. 

I think Briggs uses the event as sort of a reward for good employees, since from what I've seen they tend to send different people every year (this may not be true I suck at remembering people).  Cant blame them, I would too if I were briggs,   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/29/2009 at 2:01am
The blonde guy, Chris, has been to several races now and is a really good guy to deal with.  He's extremely friendly and very familiar with some of the common problems we see.  If you ever have engine trouble seek him out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EAD Motorsports Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/29/2009 at 9:49am
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

The blonde guy, Chris, has been to several races now and is a really good guy to deal with.  He's extremely friendly and very familiar with some of the common problems we see.  If you ever have engine trouble seek him out.
Agreed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/28/2011 at 10:39am

Bringing the dead back to life, what is the latest assumption for measuring fuel level? If I were to do it I would come up with a way to attach a sending unit to the cap, therefore not modifying the tank?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/28/2014 at 11:03pm
Sorry to bring an old thread back to life, but I have a few as of now.

1. Cost report should not be one submission for all three events. It should be like design report and be separate for each competition. If the report is late, it should affect that specific competition, not all three. Make it consistent with the design report, or make the design report one submission like the cost report currently is.

2. One of our track workers burnt his hand on a hot frame member because some team's exhaust was right on a rear frame tube. It's just stupid and unsafe if you ask me.

3. Transponders shouldn't go on cost report. They are not a functional part of the car (like passive data acquisition), and are the same price for everyone. All it does is inflate the cost report in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soccerdan7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/29/2014 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by Nate Nate wrote:

3. Transponders shouldn't go on cost report. They are not a functional part of the car (like passive data acquisition), and are the same price for everyone. All it does is inflate the cost report in my opinion.

The engine is the same for everyone too. By that logic there should be no engine cost either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zglazer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/29/2014 at 10:09pm
The issue I see with transponders is that teams who choose to use two of them for redundancy end up taking a cost hit, which is not the case for the engine (since everyone has one engine, obviously). It's not really fair that a team should take a hit in cost just because they want to make extra sure their laps get counted correctly. I think the comparison between transponders and passive data acquisition is pretty reasonable as well. Both are things that are on the car but are not there to affect the performance of the vehicle in any way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soccerdan7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/29/2014 at 10:17pm
I agree transponders should be "free" because they are standard and required by rules as an add-on to an otherwise complete vehicle for everyone.

It is different for passive data acquisition however as a team can monitor say fuel level and pit strategically or see engine temperature skyrocket because the air intake is chock full of mud again. This type of data gives the team a (small) competitive advantage and thus should have the cost hit associated with it. Teams can weigh the cost / benefit and decide for themselves if they want it on the car. Otherwise anything "extra" (that is not required to compete) should be free: cutting brakes, solar panels, data acquisition, anti-roll bar, etc etc. Anything non-essential on the car that does not have to be there by rules and is not identical car-to-car should have any drawbacks such as cost taken into account.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zglazer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/29/2014 at 10:22pm
The types of data acquisition you mentioned are not passive, since they provide real-time feedback to either the driver or the rest of the team, and do need to be included in the cost report according to the current rules. Passive data acquisition is data that's collected during the competition but can't be accessed until after the fact, and that does not have to be included in the cost report, which I think makes sense since it doesn't provide the team with any advantages during the events themselves.
Zack Glazer
McGill Baja Racing Alumnus 2009-2013 http://baja.mcgilleus.ca/
2012-2013 Drivetrain Designer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RLM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/30/2014 at 7:28am
Composite Firewalls as long as you can prove that durring a torch test, the composite will hold up longer than the required metal and not catch fire. 

From the 2014 Formula SAE Rule Book:
"T4.5.2 The firewall must be a non-permeable surface made from a rigid, fire resistant material and for electric vehicles must also comply with PART EV - EV4.3. "


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