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Show Your Junk: 2012 Edition

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Category: General
Forum Name: Lounge
Forum Description: Talk about whatever
URL: http://forums.bajasae.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=881
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 3:22pm


Topic: Show Your Junk: 2012 Edition
Posted By: CLReedy21
Subject: Show Your Junk: 2012 Edition
Date Posted: Dec/01/2011 at 8:34pm
Well it's that time again.  Here's our junk so far.  Big thanks to Cartesian Tube Profiling for making this year's build fly!


And with our newest model, Gage.



-------------
-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni
Fourwheeler Drawer



"Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain."



Replies:
Posted By: frinesi2
Date Posted: Dec/01/2011 at 9:04pm
I don't think the tech judges are going to like your SIM, Chris.


Posted By: Laxtondt
Date Posted: Dec/01/2011 at 9:09pm
Actually, this is how its done.

Our first attempt at welding we decided wouldn't pass tech, so we had to make a 2nd try at it.




-------------
Tyrell Laxton
TTU Baja (guy with the hair)
www.ttubaja.com


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Dec/02/2011 at 10:19am
I see nothing but little red x's from Chris... but I like the use of the DTNW process, that is Duct Tape Nascar Welding.
 
 


-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Dec/02/2011 at 12:14pm
Laser notched tubes? Frame looks a few inches shorter length wise than last year?


Posted By: Laxtondt
Date Posted: Dec/02/2011 at 7:45pm
That's just because it doesn't have the back half yet, it really shortens up a car if you cut off those heavy rear wheels and that whole engine deal.

You gotta look at the details.


-------------
Tyrell Laxton
TTU Baja (guy with the hair)
www.ttubaja.com


Posted By: CLReedy21
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 11:17am
Originally posted by ErikHardy ErikHardy wrote:

Laser notched tubes? Frame looks a few inches shorter length wise than last year?

CNC bent and notched by the good folks at Cartesian Tube Profiling.

Anybody got any new junk to show off for 2012?


-------------
-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni
Fourwheeler Drawer



"Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain."


Posted By: Soccerdan7
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 3:24pm
We have a lot of new junk in the works and have recently started serious fabrication. Our team traditionally doesn't like showing things in advance though so no pics yet... It's all about the surprise.

-------------
Danny

Cornell

(fall'07 - spring'12)
Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon
10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 3:36pm
I bet it ends up being red, black, and carbon fiber Tongue

-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: Soccerdan7
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 3:53pm
Probably a pretty safe bet... at least while I still have a say

-------------
Danny

Cornell

(fall'07 - spring'12)
Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon
10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins


Posted By: p.lewis
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

I bet it ends up being red, black, and carbon fiber Tongue
 
Sounds like a joke... "What's red, black, and carbon fiber all over?"


-------------
University of Rochester Alum


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 4:33pm
We might have 3 pedals...
Jason woun't let me run an alternator and a light barCry
Zero Carbon fibre and possibly Aluminum in interesting places.
 
How much was Cartesian Chris?


Posted By: LukeS
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 6:22pm
Since this thread needs more pictures:



Despite me saying, "the shoulder bar needs to be 5" lower this year" we added a second shoulder bar.




-------------
University of Regina
http://www.cougar-racing.com


Posted By: Soccerdan7
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by p.lewis p.lewis wrote:

"What's red, black, and carbon fiber all over?"

I think that might have to go on our firewall this year


-------------
Danny

Cornell

(fall'07 - spring'12)
Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon
10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 7:55pm


Posted By: frinesi2
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 8:22pm
Take that FEI and your silly LED lights!


Posted By: Laxtondt
Date Posted: Dec/08/2011 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by LukeS LukeS wrote:

Despite me saying, "the shoulder bar needs to be 5" lower this year" we added a second shoulder bar.

I saw that, and was about to ask...

But I like the use of ratchet straps to square up the frame, we did the same thing with our nose this year.


-------------
Tyrell Laxton
TTU Baja (guy with the hair)
www.ttubaja.com


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Dec/09/2011 at 7:40am
I like all those wooden jigs... that looks like an good, fast, AND cheap way to go... and the teachers always said that was impossible Tongue

-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: frinesi2
Date Posted: Dec/09/2011 at 7:42am
Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

I like all those wooden jigs... that looks like an good, fast, AND cheap way to go... and the teachers always said that was impossible Tongue


And if you use pine, you get a pleasant aroma while welding LOL


Posted By: sorms811
Date Posted: Dec/09/2011 at 11:57am
University of Wisconsin-Platteville as of 12/3
We us PipeMasters to help notch our tubes.  They work great.


-------------
Here's to the crazy ones!


Posted By: LukeS
Date Posted: Dec/09/2011 at 12:03pm
The MDF works excellent for a one off vehicle.  2 sheets of 1" MDF were purchased for our 2011 baja and so far it looks like we'll be able to get the 2012 baja out of them as well.

The frame has been extremely precise so far.  One bar is out by 1/16" and that was due to a piece of tubing being fish mouthed short.


-------------
University of Regina
http://www.cougar-racing.com


Posted By: p.lewis
Date Posted: Dec/09/2011 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by LukeS LukeS wrote:

The MDF works excellent for a one off vehicle. 
 
Since it's mostly glue and the fibers are not lined up an any particular direction (i.e. wood), it ends up being pretty dimensionally stable with RH and temperature swings in your shop. I think a sheet of MDF on a sturdy table is great for making a fixture for the RRH and other stuff all in the same plane.


-------------
University of Rochester Alum


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Dec/09/2011 at 3:53pm
Anybody weighed the virgin frame yet?


Posted By: VivaLaShay
Date Posted: Dec/09/2011 at 4:55pm


-------------
ODU Baja


Posted By: schooter
Date Posted: Dec/09/2011 at 6:09pm
Nice frame vivlashay! Which nodes does your front suspension connect to?

EDIT: Nevermind, I think I see where your suspension mounts will go.


-------------
Chase Schuette
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaseschuette/


Posted By: JMcCarty22
Date Posted: Dec/09/2011 at 6:29pm


-------------
Jamie McCarty
Chippewa Performance
Team Captain 2011-12


Posted By: VivaLaShay
Date Posted: Dec/11/2011 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by schooter schooter wrote:

Nice frame vivlashay! Which nodes does your front suspension connect to?

EDIT: Nevermind, I think I see where your suspension mounts will go.
Thanks, suspension mounts to the lower 2 bars


-------------
ODU Baja


Posted By: otto
Date Posted: Dec/11/2011 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by Soccerdan7 Soccerdan7 wrote:

We have a lot of new junk in the works and have recently started serious fabrication. Our team traditionally doesn't like showing things in advance though so no pics yet... It's all about the surprise.


pfft tradition, we just dont have anyone on the forums no harm in progress update.  I have some pics, but I went back to CO and left my mini USB cord in NY so I cant pull them off my camera... yet.  The frame should be totally done by this weds, minus tabs (at least thats the plan, it was missing about 6 bars when i left).  Should also have most if not all control arms done by then too.  Got some front uprights done in the CNC before I left.  Rear suspension is a departure from what we've done, but nothing new to baja.  Car should be much much lighter this year.

theres also1-2 new things that I'm excited about (not my projects, wont spill the beans)

is the central michigan with the clearanced LFS tubes? does that make fitting a seat a pain, and have you have problems getting high centered in the past?

also (dont have the post in front of me) but i think its kettering, those sims are interesting.  never thought of running them like that.

we've always mitered all of our bars with air tool stones.  Our tube bending sponsor also struggles getting our tubes properly bent (LFS were bent almost twice as much as the drawing said, at least they got the hard bars doen correctly) so we have to revert to bending some tubes ourselves.  Also drastically improved our jigging set up this year, making everything a breeze to set correctly.  Its nice to have a grid of holes all under your frame for fixturing too.


-------------
Cornell Baja 2008-2012, suspension stuff
Oregon State 2012+, saw chain & some more baja


Posted By: JMcCarty22
Date Posted: Dec/11/2011 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by otto otto wrote:



is the central michigan with the clearanced LFS tubes? does that make fitting a seat a pain, and have you have problems getting high centered in the past?



What clearance are you referring to on the LFS tubes?  We haven't had any troubles with fitting a seat with the setup we run.  We have run the rake in our frame for the past 3 years, it gives us more clearance and helps with ergonomics...the reasoning behind it is that when the driver is seated his legs are bent and the area under his legs is unused so the rake reduces this area and allows for more clearance over obstacles.


-------------
Jamie McCarty
Chippewa Performance
Team Captain 2011-12


Posted By: otto
Date Posted: Dec/11/2011 at 11:11pm
just the fact they arent flat.  probably the camera angle, that point where they are moved up looks close to the firewall


-------------
Cornell Baja 2008-2012, suspension stuff
Oregon State 2012+, saw chain & some more baja


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Dec/13/2011 at 10:16am
Originally posted by otto otto wrote:


also (dont have the post in front of me) but i think its kettering, those sims are interesting.  never thought of running them like that.

 We've found its much easier to fabricate the sims that way with our frame at least. The sims and triangulating members were cut,bent,notched and tacked in within about 2 hours.


Posted By: T Fears MS&T
Date Posted: Dec/13/2011 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by ErikHardy ErikHardy wrote:

Originally posted by otto otto wrote:


also (dont have the post in front of me) but i think its kettering, those sims are interesting.  never thought of running them like that.

 We've found its much easier to fabricate the sims that way with our frame at least. The sims and triangulating members were cut,bent,notched and tacked in within about 2 hours.
\
 

It doesn’t seem to comply with the rules the way I read them.  How do you justify it?  I could be interpreting it wrong.



Posted By: T Fears MS&T
Date Posted: Dec/13/2011 at 9:09pm

is a SIM allowed to consist of more than one piece of tube?



Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Dec/14/2011 at 7:00am
The sim doesn't have to be continuous. Check out last years thread, we did the same thing.


Posted By: anspach
Date Posted: Dec/16/2011 at 4:39pm
This is what we have have been working on. The frame is almost all tacked together. We still need to add the front part of the SIMs.

-------------
Brandon
Ohio Northern SAE Baja


Posted By: schooter
Date Posted: Dec/16/2011 at 5:17pm
haha.....sexy curves on that there roll hoop!!Thumbs Up TTU should have copyrighted that.

-------------
Chase Schuette
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaseschuette/


Posted By: anspach
Date Posted: Dec/16/2011 at 5:38pm
Haha, yeah probably, our car from the last year had a similar firewall. But the idea for it came from TTU. The lower side tubes which are kinda hard too see have some pretty wicked bends in them. It's one continuous tube from the firewall to the node the SIMs will go into.

-------------
Brandon
Ohio Northern SAE Baja


Posted By: schooter
Date Posted: Dec/16/2011 at 6:06pm
yeah, bends like that usually take a few tries or someone with a bit of experience. Unless you have bending software and a bender that's calibrated.

I like the idea of using bends like you got, its something you can actually justify in design judging. Your reducing the frontal area and increasing top speed. I estimated last year that we were loosing close to 3 hp with a speed in the low 30's. Every little bit of that firewall you can get rid of helps.


-------------
Chase Schuette
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaseschuette/


Posted By: anspach
Date Posted: Dec/16/2011 at 7:15pm
I wasn't there when they bent the first set but I think they got the firewall bent on the first try. I think we figured last years firewall was about 1sq foot smaller than our previous design. The floor tubes were bent twice. There are two bend planes 34 degrees apart... It was kinda tense bending them and not bending them too far.

-------------
Brandon
Ohio Northern SAE Baja


Posted By: Laxtondt
Date Posted: Dec/19/2011 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by schooter schooter wrote:

haha.....sexy curves on that there roll hoop!!Thumbs Up TTU should have copyrighted that.

Dang it we need to stop throwing out all our old firewalls, they keep popping up on other people's cars.

On a side note, when we did it, we made the bottom quite a bit narrower.


-------------
Tyrell Laxton
TTU Baja (guy with the hair)
www.ttubaja.com


Posted By: sfclark
Date Posted: Dec/27/2011 at 2:34am




Posted By: S&Tminer baja
Date Posted: Jan/11/2012 at 2:44pm
S&T's complete frame just weighed in at 51 lbs before tabs. Solidworks projection: 51 and change. Solidworks... works!

-------------
-Carl Lacy

S&T Miner Baja SAE
Jaded Old Consultant/Frame Design
Team Captain 2009-2011
Public Relations 2008-2010

Missouri S&T; Rolla, MO


Posted By: T Fears MS&T
Date Posted: Jan/14/2012 at 10:57pm
Here is 41,008 words about our car thus far.
 
 


Posted By: S&Tminer baja
Date Posted: Jan/16/2012 at 7:44pm
Gawl, frames are awesome when done correctly.
 
I bet whoever designed that frame and jigging setup is pretty badass. Maybe S&T will finally get to make a decent showing this time around.


-------------
-Carl Lacy

S&T Miner Baja SAE
Jaded Old Consultant/Frame Design
Team Captain 2009-2011
Public Relations 2008-2010

Missouri S&T; Rolla, MO


Posted By: CLReedy21
Date Posted: Jan/16/2012 at 9:37pm
What's a "jig"?

-------------
-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni
Fourwheeler Drawer



"Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain."


Posted By: T Fears MS&T
Date Posted: Jan/16/2012 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

What's a "jig"?


Its a type of dance.


Posted By: T Fears MS&T
Date Posted: Jan/16/2012 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by S&Tminer baja S&Tminer baja wrote:

Gawl, frames are awesome when done correctly.
 
I bet whoever designed that frame and jigging setup is pretty badass. Maybe S&T will finally get to make a decent showing this time around.


Not if the ******s in charge of us have any say about it.  We're doomed!


Posted By: CLReedy21
Date Posted: Jan/16/2012 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by T Fears MS&T T Fears MS&T wrote:

Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

What's a "jig"?


Its a type of dance.

Good.  For a second I though I was supposed to have one to build a frame!  Tongue


-------------
-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni
Fourwheeler Drawer



"Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain."


Posted By: VivaLaShay
Date Posted: Jan/16/2012 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

Originally posted by T Fears MS&T T Fears MS&T wrote:

Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

What's a "jig"?


Its a type of dance.

Good.  For a second I though I was supposed to have one to build a frame!  Tongue

You don't have a frame building dance?! You're missing out.


-------------
ODU Baja


Posted By: CLReedy21
Date Posted: Jan/17/2012 at 12:16am
Originally posted by VivaLaShay VivaLaShay wrote:

You don't have a frame building dance?! You're missing out.

Only an unofficial one.  It's called the "Try-to-move-the-frame-by-grabbing-a-freshly-welded-node".  What you do is burn the shampoo out of your hand then flail around like a crack head on your way to the sink.


-------------
-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni
Fourwheeler Drawer



"Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain."


Posted By: VivaLaShay
Date Posted: Jan/17/2012 at 10:49am
This is what happens when you jig too much


-------------
ODU Baja


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Jan/17/2012 at 11:23am
reminds me of this...
 


-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: S&Tminer baja
Date Posted: Jan/20/2012 at 1:49pm
Our jig setup was necessary since our Student Design Center keeps kicking members out. It provided that extra set of hands that our welder needed.
Speaking of, we should have a "Show Your Junk: Shop Edition." That would be interesting.


-------------
-Carl Lacy

S&T Miner Baja SAE
Jaded Old Consultant/Frame Design
Team Captain 2009-2011
Public Relations 2008-2010

Missouri S&T; Rolla, MO


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Jan/20/2012 at 3:55pm
Pictures/cameras in the shop should be strictly prohibited. What happens in the garage stays in the garage.


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Jan/20/2012 at 4:09pm
I got a camera when I was in school for the sole purpose of taking baja pictures... and it hasn't been used since I graduated!

-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: jeiB
Date Posted: Jan/20/2012 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

reminds me of this...
 


It's sad I actually know which university this is...


-------------
Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing
2009-2011 Captain
minibaja.mcgill.ca


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Jan/20/2012 at 6:53pm
The big Oregon state poster sorta gives it away doesn't it?

-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: T Fears MS&T
Date Posted: Jan/20/2012 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by ErikHardy ErikHardy wrote:

Pictures/cameras in the shop should be strictly prohibited. What happens in the garage stays in the garage.
 
Yeah... Ermm
 
Hopefully your saying this becuase u dont want evidance of shenanigans and not becuase you think that frame pictures taken well over halfway in the season might show up in competitors designs.  If so, more power to them.  Nothing were doing hasnt been done already.


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Jan/20/2012 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by T Fears MS&T T Fears MS&T wrote:

Originally posted by ErikHardy ErikHardy wrote:

Pictures/cameras in the shop should be strictly prohibited. What happens in the garage stays in the garage.
 
Yeah... Ermm
 
Hopefully your saying this becuase u dont want evidance of shenanigans and not becuase you think that frame pictures taken well over halfway in the season might show up in competitors designs.  If so, more power to them.  Nothing were doing hasnt been done already.
Evidence of shenanigans!Smile Forklift adventures, flipped over cars etc..
I've got no problem showing people our stuff. Yall can look at our competition results from the previous years to see what your copying if you want... or I can just tell you that it has been poorLOL


Posted By: abenn
Date Posted: Jan/23/2012 at 8:06am
Originally posted by S&Tminer baja S&Tminer baja wrote:

Our jig setup was necessary since our Student Design Center keeps kicking members out. It provided that extra set of hands that our welder needed.
Speaking of, we should have a "Show Your Junk: Shop Edition." That would be interesting.

I would definitely agree that a shop "tour" thread would be very interesting. Our shop is pretty much a closet that we share with 3 other student groups.


-------------
Andy Benn
Northeastern University Baja SAE
http://www.facebook.com/nubaja - http://www.facebook.com/nubaja
http://www.numotorsports.com - http://www.numotorsports.com


Posted By: clarkson_baja
Date Posted: Jan/29/2012 at 6:54pm


Our high tech 3D frame jig hard at work before pieces are tacked in place


Posted By: RKS2108
Date Posted: Feb/13/2012 at 8:53pm

Michigan Tech’s progress.  New F-N-R box with a final weight of 15.5 lbs.  Set up for MTU’s custom CVT system (more pictures to follow).  The chassis this year will allow the entire team to be legal. Note the ‘interesting’ front suspension points and gearbox mounting setup.

 


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Feb/14/2012 at 12:10am
Holy sh*tt Nice jobClap


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Feb/14/2012 at 8:01am
So that thing under the floor that's dogged down... is that part of the frame?

-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: RKS2108
Date Posted: Feb/14/2012 at 8:12am
Yep, We are trying a removable front clip...


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Feb/14/2012 at 8:25am

Do you have a history of destroying suspensions?  Why make it removeable? 

Now clean up those wrenches!


-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: RKS2108
Date Posted: Feb/14/2012 at 11:18am
No we have never had any suspension issues-the idea was to be able to change suspension geometry easily. Time will tell if it is worth the trouble...


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Feb/14/2012 at 11:49am
Are you guys sticking with the carbon fiber control arms?


Posted By: RKS2108
Date Posted: Feb/14/2012 at 11:59am

Possibly...

They are expensive on the cost report, and no one likes to work with fiber.



Posted By: BSC-Baja2012
Date Posted: Feb/14/2012 at 3:57pm
What did you guys break at Peoria last year? Every time I turned around you guys were in your pits.

-------------
Buffalo State College
Wisconsin 2012
Team 32


Posted By: RKS2108
Date Posted: Feb/14/2012 at 4:54pm

Well, we only went to the Kansas comp, but we broke a steering shaft, battery mount, and had some CVT fasteners wander away.



Posted By: Purduebaja
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 12:30am
Nice gearbox, we will be posting pictures of our first fully custom gearbox once we get the housing all machined. Currently looking at doing some cool designs on the outside haha. 

15.5 lbs for FNR? Does that include gears, shafts, bearings, seals, diff (looks like you dont have one anymore but I cant tell) and gear oil? That just sounds really light. We run a single speed double reduction with decent weight saving geometry and stub tooth profile to get extra small pinions and even then just the gears themselves weigh about 5 lbs and housing about 6 lbs

Also, looks like you've made some major changes since Coughlins era. Before you guys ran an internal sprocket reverse, huge custom locking diff, and major weight savings on the web of your gears. Back then they were claiming under 25 lbs. Would you care to summarize the reasoning behind the design changes? There's a pic I found below of your old setup.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs077.ash2/37213_574443069387_6604569_33142597_3154605_n.jpg - http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs077.ash2/37213_574443069387_6604569_33142597_3154605_n.jpg ">




Posted By: Purduebaja
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 12:39am
Also from what I can tell thats a $7500 tube notcher. We were looking into similar tube notching equipment but went with grinding on the old bench grinder due to cost. How do you like it and how long would you say it takes to do each tube? We are thinking about getting an endmill based notcher for next year to share between our formula and baja teams so some feedback would be much appreciated.


Posted By: RKS2108
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 8:25am

The 15.5lbs includes everything but the oil. This box uses 14 pitch input and reverse gear sets and a 12 pitch output set. The old box you mentioned had 14 and 10 pitch gear, I believe. It is surprising how much weight can be saved by reducing the gear pitch. Also, the gear reverse is much lighter than the old chain version; we also do not have a differential, which saves a couple more pounds. We plan on milling out some of the gear bodies, but have not had time yet. The diff did not seem to be worth the extra weight and complexity. This year we are using thin race bearings, which help cut more weight. 

The tube notcher was purchased before my time, so I do not know how much it cost. It is not very fast, but it is a major step up from the hole saw notcher. I would say 4-7 min to notch a tube. The notcher we have uses a 1” endmill which can be rotated eccentrically to notch up to 1.75” tubing.



Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 9:03am
4-7 minutes!?!  That's an eternity compared to the holesaw notcher I have at home!  I notch 1.75 x .120 wall DOM in 30-45 seconds without wreaking havoc on the holesaw.

-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: jeiB
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 9:15am
A hole saw can do the notch is one pass. In the end mill type notcher (which we have as well), you have to work your way through your tube, so it takes longer. It is also very difficult to notch very thin tubes (<0.049"WT) with the notcher we have.


-------------
Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing
2009-2011 Captain
minibaja.mcgill.ca


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 10:27am
When I was in school we used our Bridgeport mill from time to time... while it did take a while, I don't remember it taking that long.  The notches were certainly nicer though. 

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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: jeiB
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 10:52am
Our notcher certainly does not take over 2 minutes.

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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing
2009-2011 Captain
minibaja.mcgill.ca


Posted By: AndyRIT
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 11:24am
The trick to getting the notch done fast is a close rough cut, that way you don't need to notch away a ton of material. Our Notcher at rit is too loud and made a mess so everyone hated it. When I was doing frames a couple years ago I prefered a bridgeport, a hole saw and a good angle vise.

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RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08'
2010 RIT Track builder
2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader
2012 Wis vol
2013 RIT Track Builder
Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines


Posted By: Glen Kleinsasser
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 11:11pm
Some nice work posted!!

We're a pretty small, inexperienced team (Competed last in Rochester 2010 and Im the only member of that team left). Anyway, were going crazy trying to get everything done by April...
Here's some pics of our progress so far.
Our gearbox should weigh in around 35 lbs. (staight up reduction gearbox with integrated diff)... Its all using stock gears. We broke our input shaft in 2010, so higher safety factors all round (still lowering overall weight and adding the diff).





And our diff (Detroit Locker)... 





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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012
Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011


Posted By: Soccerdan7
Date Posted: Feb/15/2012 at 11:16pm
Why do you guys have the CVT on the right (passenger) side of the vehicle, forcing your engine to aim the exhaust straight into your driver's lower back (I assume you will relocate it 90 degrees or so to point out one side)?

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Danny

Cornell

(fall'07 - spring'12)
Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon
10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 8:17am
It gets cold on those endurance mornings!

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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: Glen Kleinsasser
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 9:11am
Yeah, we have heated seats with an adjustable exhaust deflector to control the temperature...

No, we are planning on relocating it as you stated. We have a three stage reduction gearbox which needs to be driven from that side (or we could have added another gear)... and the configuration we have enables us to drop the CG of the vehicle significantly (the engine is 12" lower than our 2010 vehicle). Also, it will enable the driver to access the pull-start while sitting in the vehicle. We figured relocating the exhaust is fairly trivial.



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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012
Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011


Posted By: p.lewis
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Glen Kleinsasser Glen Kleinsasser wrote:

Also, it will enable the driver to access the pull-start while sitting in the vehicle. We figured relocating the exhaust is fairly trivial.
 
I don't see it done very often, but reorienting the pull-start is fairly trivial too. 4 pop rivets.


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University of Rochester Alum


Posted By: Soccerdan7
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 12:50pm
It is fairly trivial to relocate but we have found that it is fairly difficult to actually start the car with wrist restraints on during race conditions so we don't bother with that anymore.

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Danny

Cornell

(fall'07 - spring'12)
Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon
10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 1:51pm
I tossed around the idea of a significant re-route/re-design to enable a kickstart kind of deal for that very reason... it's hard to do much of anything with wrist restraints on, but the driver's feet are pretty free.

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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: BSC-Baja2012
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 3:45pm
I don't know why you even need one... Never in our 15 year history have we had a car stall on the track during an event or race. Even with a manual gearbox, the driver hasn't been dumb enough to stall it out. If you roll or whatever, you gotta go back to the pits anyways so whats the point?

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Buffalo State College
Wisconsin 2012
Team 32


Posted By: collinskl1
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 4:02pm

It would just make things easier... for instance:

When you're driving by yourself, sometimes it's hard to start up and then jump in the car before it runs away. 
 
Our cars were always tricky to start because of the generally high engine placement and the swingarm/axle sticking out behind the frame.  You had to be really tall or stand on the tire to get to the cord.
 
With no reverse, there were times our CVT car could get stuck or run into an obstacle while heading up hill... with an engine cut off and a way to re-start we could "back up" by rolling down hill.  Sometimes quick modulations of the kill switch would work, others it wouldnt.  Likewise whenever we needed a push backwards, it was impossible with the engine running.  If we could kill the motor and restart without relying on carnage crew to start, it would be faster.
 
 
 
In the end, the relative low payoff kept me from ever even sketching the system on a napkin.


-------------
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.


Posted By: Glen Kleinsasser
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 6:30pm
Yeah, we didnt give it too much thought... just figured it would be pretty easy to rerout the exhaust and it enbled us to use the short CV-Tech belts with the engine in that low position. Otherwise the cylinder and valve cover get in the way. 
I originally wasnt too happy about it but i'm liking how its turning out.



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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012
Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011


Posted By: logpace
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 7:28pm

Wow nice frames! Really like that MS&T Fast Frame fixture. We designed a sub frame for our car this year so we have easy access to our new gear box and CVT without having to take apart the whole rear of the car. On another note, our welder is getting stubborn and insists that he can weld ¼ inch gaps without any pre heat with a tig welder and he isn’t cleaning the notches before welding. Any friendly advice?



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Logan Pace

Cal Poly SLO Baja

"Failure is not an option."


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 7:30pm
Why is there quarter inch gaps in the first place?


Posted By: logpace
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 7:33pm
Because he believes he can weld it so he did not remake the tab... So we got it remade :)

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Logan Pace

Cal Poly SLO Baja

"Failure is not an option."


Posted By: Glen Kleinsasser
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 8:32pm
There should be no reason to pre-heat material that thin with tig... 

1/4" gaps are weldable but should be avoided. If you are careful when welding it I dont think you lose much structurally, as you can make sure your weld is thicker than the wall thickness. 

It really sucks welding big gaps on 0.035 material though and often the extra time spent welding gaps would be better used cutting new pieces. Welds will look better too.




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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012
Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011


Posted By: logpace
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 8:38pm
Well with the preheat I meant on our tubes, .035 up to 069... And we just had a gap that big on a tab, 2 different examples. Do you think it's not necessary to preheat the tube welds in general? It's just we don't really have a good jig system in place to prevent warp...

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Logan Pace

Cal Poly SLO Baja

"Failure is not an option."


Posted By: Glen Kleinsasser
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 8:43pm
If you're tig welding, preheating definitely isn't necessary. Even with Mig welding, if you have your settings right you shouldnt have to preheat anything except maybe >1/4" thick plate. 

If you are concerned about warping, just get each joint tacked together well before welding. 

We didnt use much of a jig... 2 pieces of plywood and a few conduit straps.




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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012
Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011


Posted By: ffriolet
Date Posted: Feb/16/2012 at 9:04pm
We work with http://www.sodel.com/ - Sodel 's metallurgic engineer for 3 year to improve our weld on the frame. Some of they advise were:

  • Pre-heat(400F) 4130 if the tube is thicker than 0.065" and slow cold if you use 333 rod to avoid the martensitic crystal structure.
  • Use 333 rod with 4130 tubing because this rod will absorb a lots of hydrogen and 4130 tubing is sensitive to hydrogen cracking.

We did in 2010 a lots of destructive test on weld tube (different Amp, different rod, different slow cold, different pre-heat). In conclusion, each tube that was pre-heat and slow cold had a tendency to break at a higher force.

It's not necessary to do this, but it can advoid disaster or increase the stiffness of the frame.


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Fred Friolet
Baja ETS
Team captain 2012
Design leader 2011
Driver 2011-2012


Posted By: S&Tminer baja
Date Posted: Feb/17/2012 at 10:30am
How exactly do you ensure a "slow" cool on a weld? Do you just not blow on it? Haha!
 
But really, how slow are we talking? To get martensite, you almost have to quench most steels. Granted, our frame material has a pretty high surface area:volume and so heat escapes pretty quickly, but you don't keep a flame on it or anything do you? Wrap it with fiberglass maybe?
 
The metallurgical side of things is so often overlooked, it is cool to see a team that actually tested different processes and materials. I'd be interested to see how dramatic the differences in yielding were.
 
For instance, we had two different welders for our 2011 car, and after competition it saw a major rollover or two. Several welds from welder A cracked, and none from welder B cracked. Had this happened in a race, weld preparation/process/quality could have DQ-ed us. It's a big deal!


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-Carl Lacy

S&T Miner Baja SAE
Jaded Old Consultant/Frame Design
Team Captain 2009-2011
Public Relations 2008-2010

Missouri S&T; Rolla, MO


Posted By: S&Tminer baja
Date Posted: Feb/17/2012 at 10:34am
Originally posted by logpace logpace wrote:

Because he believes he can weld it so he did not remake the tab... So we got it remade :)
Glad to hear you remade it anyway. We learned pretty early on that you just don't make an inferior part (by more difficult work) just so that a team member can stroke his ego. Welding a 1/4" gap just because you can is not the way to do it!

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-Carl Lacy

S&T Miner Baja SAE
Jaded Old Consultant/Frame Design
Team Captain 2009-2011
Public Relations 2008-2010

Missouri S&T; Rolla, MO


Posted By: logpace
Date Posted: Feb/17/2012 at 4:02pm
Well thanks for the advice! Ffriolet, could you go more into detail about how you ensured a slow cool on your welds? And S&T thanks for the comment, I'll definitely be showing him this post when we work today.

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Logan Pace

Cal Poly SLO Baja

"Failure is not an option."


Posted By: ErikHardy
Date Posted: Feb/17/2012 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by S&Tminer baja S&Tminer baja wrote:


 
For instance, we had two different welders for our 2011 car, and after competition it saw a major rollover or two. Several welds from welder A cracked, and none from welder B cracked. Had this happened in a race, weld preparation/process/quality could have DQ-ed us. It's a big deal!

Any idea what was the main difference from Welder A & B?



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