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****New Team Looking for guidance and Direction**

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SCU|MotorSportDesign View Drop Down
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    Posted: Aug/29/2010 at 1:09am
Hey all, this is Jason with SCU|MS... this is our 3rd year competing in the baja (the last year was 2003) and are looking for a fresh start.  We already have gotten significant headway on the frame and are looking to finalize our components list.  Since we don't really have a legacy of old cars and cad files to work off of, we have to start from the ground up this time around.  The parts we are in dire need of direction of are the front (and rear) uprights, corresponding hubs and calipers and the transmission (as we do not want to machine those parts...). 

As a teammate and i went looking around for part costs yesterday, we came across the idea that, if we go with the uprights, calipers, hubs (and consequentially disk brakes) from that particular manufacturer, whether it be from a quad or most likely some sort of utility atv, then we would be able to focus on the design and optimization of the other components/frame and the integration as a whole package. Everything would mesh together nicely as far as contacting the road goes and the only things we would have to match up would be the design of the a-arms and the cv interface for the rear.  *Ive heard that a suspension system designed with heim joints is "tougher" than a comparable one that uses ball joints... is this true? I ask because most of the heavy duty-type quad atv's were using the ball joints....

As far as driveline goes, we were going to go with the CVTech cvt that is specially designed for baja.  Then run that to a transmission with a forward speed and AT LEAST reverse.  If possible, we would like to have a low range if possible. Are there any specific transmissions that any of you have used that pertain to our wants? Perhaps a small motorbike tranny? i really don't know what to look for so a point in the right direction would help a lot!

since we ARE looking for all of these parts, does anyone here have an atv in mind that has these features?  It would be really nice to buy a quad for around a grand or less to piece out these parts. 

thank you so much for reading.... it would be a big help if you all could offer anything and/or respond to my questions.

thanks again!
jason


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kenneth.mandeville View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth.mandeville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/29/2010 at 8:41am
Polaris has a great parts list and good discount for SAE teams.  I think most teams have good luck with the predator/outlaw components:

I am sure these are very heavy though, it might be easier to just stick with forward for this year and use a double chain reduction with tow plates on either side locating all the shafts.  This way you have control over your ratios.

You could always but an ATV like you said to get the suspension components but I'm can't think of one that has a separate transmission that is a good, light option for Baja.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SDTech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/29/2010 at 10:29am
We have a bunch of parts sitting around from various, mostly polaris,  ATV's that we have no use for.  I know we have at least 4 or 5 of the 4 bolt hubs, I think a couple of uprights and a bunch of other random parts.  I can do some looking and see what exactly we have, but if you guys need any of it I'll happily drop them in the mail just to get it out of our way and help a new team get going.  
SDSMT Baja SAE
Car #'s 4 & 6 - Oregon
Car # 14 - Wisconsin

#4 & #79 - Western Washington

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pedro UFPBaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/29/2010 at 11:14am
We created a section on our site with support material with everything we missed when we were starting.
It will be very helpful for new teams.
Already has many material and we'll add more things in the future.
It's all in Portuguese, but with the Google translator that's not a problem.


Do not forget to check out the QDS's catalog.



Edited by Pedro UFPBaja - Aug/29/2010 at 11:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/29/2010 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by kenneth.mandeville kenneth.mandeville wrote:

I am sure these are very heavy though, it might be easier to just stick with forward for this year and use a double chain reduction with tow plates on either side locating all the shafts.  This way you have control over your ratios.
 
 +1
Go with the dual chain reduction for this year, reverse and low speeds are not necessary but more of an option. Keep it a spooled rear end just for pure simplification. Keep in mind you may want to add a swaybar to get the inside tire off the ground for tight turns.
 
I would say its best to go with ATV parts to put you ahead in the design game (Refer to the Project Management thread). Most of your ATV spindles will use ball joints, keep this in mind as they will limit the suspension travel with your A-arm lengths. Heim joints will cause problems due to putting threads in bending..
 
Determine the desired: (rough estimates)
Wheelbase (55in-70in)
Trackwidth (55in-64in)
Suspension Travel (8in-14)
Driver Ergonomics
Suspension points
Steering Ratio (10:1 - 20:1)
Tire Diameter (20in - 25in)
Just to name a few etc etc
 
Keep everything simple and plan for at LEAST 6 weeks of testing before the competition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/29/2010 at 4:34pm
http://scusae.blogspot.com/
If this is you, please let us know as we can help out with frame design as far as complying with the rules goes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paasch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/30/2010 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by kenneth.mandeville kenneth.mandeville wrote:

I am sure these are very heavy though, it might be easier to just stick with forward for this year and use a double chain reduction with tow plates on either side locating all the shafts.  This way you have control over your ratios.

Jason:

You never said what competitions you are planning to attend next year.  If you are headed to Alabama or Kansas, you won't need reverse.  If you are going to Illinois, there's maybe a 30% chance that reverse would be useful, and even then only in rock crawl.  It wasn't needed at Illinois in 2008.  A second forward speed is a waste of resources (both time & money) for a first year team.  

I would agree with Kenneth and Erik above, for a first year team I wouldn't worry about a transmission.   Do a double reduction chain and a spool.  Do a free body diagram of the system and make sure your load paths are direct so that there's no defection between the engine and your countershaft, or between the countershaft and the final drive shaft.

Keep your car as simple and basic as possible, get your car done early then test, test, test.  Document what you did and WHY you did it so that next year the team can build off what you did this year.  Read the thread on project management!


Edited by paasch - Aug/31/2010 at 4:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SCU|MotorSportDesign Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/24/2010 at 3:36pm
wow guys, that's a good amount of information.  I have compiled a parts list (tentative of course) and decided to go with many parts off of a 09 polaris outlaw irs.  Mostly the steering knucles, rear uprights, hubs/rims/brakes to simplify the assembly.  We would be taking the outlaw drivetrain as it is a spool which already has mountings for the brake and carriers for the axle.  We are planning to make the uprights/kuckles ourselves and base them off of the polaris dimensions, so if the push came to shove, we would just use the polaris parts if we were majorly pressed for time.  Does anyone see a problem with that?

Also, i was checking out CVTech and their cvt is only 100 dollars.... vs over 300 for the QDS.  Is there any reason for this price difference.  Have CTVech's worked well for many teams?
http://www.cvtech-rd.com/client/pagesoussection.asp?clef2=6&p=1.74993169307709
for the CVtech sponsorship application, i can't find the newest revision? (that was straight from their site and my team mate had said that was the wrong one? can someone confirm?)

Looking through the qds catalog, i noticed that they have a fnr box.  Would you advise against that?

ErikHardy, yes that is us! we have gone through many revisions and are still plugging through. That would be GREAT if someone would help with that.  Thank you so much for the offer!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeiB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/24/2010 at 3:41pm
The CVTech info you got from their website is the "latest" one. They redesigned the CVT they sponsored baja with in 2008/2009 and the sheet hasnt changed since then. We use it ourselves and its pretty good. Didnt work so well last year because of a poor ratio and tune but this year should be much better.
Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing
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minibaja.mcgill.ca
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnpate01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/24/2010 at 4:09pm

The new CVTech is awesome.  Great product, especially considering the price can't be beat.  We didn't have time to tune it to our liking, but we still won the Tractor Pull at Carolina with it.  Unfortunately, I can't discuss endurance due to our gearbox mishap, but it seems that it has held up well in offseason testing.  The only downside is that you won't get it until late January of next year.


Edit:  You can run the Outlaw parts as-is with little difficulty.  We ran them the last 2 years to get the team off the ground, although you will have a narrow rear end and will lose some design points.  Be sure that you have a very strong lower mount for the rear housing, as we bent our mount enough to derail the chain in testing.



Edited by johnpate01 - Sep/24/2010 at 4:13pm
-John

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CobraCommander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/24/2010 at 4:34pm
You don't need to worry about getting it, that is from when they were doing a design change and couldn't guarantee a supply till then... We ordered ours and got it within a few weeks
COBRA Team Captain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nehashj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/26/2010 at 10:53am
Hi guys,

Even I am new to the Baja competition. Can anyone clear my doubts on the Spool and the Jackshaft please.

1. How to connect the Spool to the CV half shafts on both the sides. I guess there are splines on both the spool and the shafts . Or do we have spline the spool?
( Is it better to buy the spool and the half shafts of the same ATV)

2. Can anyone suggest on how to design the double chain sprocket mounting effectively. I am able to   decide the C-C distance and the angles , but the problem is that I have very less idea on a jackshaft.
  
It will be a great help if you guys can give me information on the jackshaft : How is it connected to the sprockets and also to the main frame.

Nehash Jadhav
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2010 at 8:52am
^ not sure I totally understand the question but I'll take a shot at answering it
 
As for connecting the jack shaft to the sprockets: Unless I am misunderstanding you, it's very easy.  You machine a key way in the shaft and the sprocket (some sprockets come with the key way in them already).  For alignment use snap rings on both sides of the sprocket.  This will keep it from moving and therefore keep it aligned as well.  Aligning the sprockets is probably the most important part, but it's not too difficult as long as you model everything in CAD first.
 
Connecting everything to the main frame is done by making your own plates or cases and bolting them to the frame.
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A Redline a day keeps the carbon away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nehashj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2010 at 11:01am
@Rob71zilla - Thanks 4 the reply.
 I got the connecting the sprocket and the jackshaft part. The jackshaft has to rotate right or is it stationary? (If rotating how is it connected to the main frame)

Also , can you attach CV shafts to the spool differential directly?
( Do we have to attach the CV shafts in the black arrow and the rear sprocket in the red arrow?)



Edited by nehashj - Sep/27/2010 at 11:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2010 at 11:36am
In my experience the shaft and the sprcoekts spin togehter as one unit.  We used bearings pressed into case halves and then the shaft is pressed into the bearings, and everything is between the cases. In your case, looks like pillow block bearings will work well to support the shaft and then mount the bearings to the frame.  
 
We run a similar set up to your picture.  We had splines made out of steel rod and pressed them into the end of the shaft.  We made our shaft from solid rod then bored out the ends of it.  The splines are 1" long so we bored out the end of the shaft to an ID that made it a press fit with the splines and a depth that made the splines flush with the end of the shaft.  Heat up the shaft until its red, drop the splines into the shaft, then weld the splines to the shaft.  If you go this route, be careful to not get any weld on the splines, TIG is highly recommended for this part. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2010 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Rob71zilla Rob71zilla wrote:

We run a similar set up to your picture.  We had splines made out of steel rod and pressed them into the end of the shaft.  We made our shaft from solid rod then bored out the ends of it.  The splines are 1" long so we bored out the end of the shaft to an ID that made it a press fit with the splines and a depth that made the splines flush with the end of the shaft.  Heat up the shaft until its red, drop the splines into the shaft, then weld the splines to the shaft.  If you go this route, be careful to not get any weld on the splines, TIG is highly recommended for this part. 
 
Thats an interesting idea, is this a common practice?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2010 at 3:52pm
No idea, but it works for us.  It's also easy to get the splines back out with some careful work on a lathe. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2010 at 3:59pm
Where do you get the splines from?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/28/2010 at 8:53am
One of our members used to work at Magna Powertrain (aka New Process Gear) in Syracuse, NY so he used his connections to have them made.  He has since left the club, and more importantly they have closed down.  I wouldn't think it would be a hard concept for any spline compnay to do.  It's cutting internal splines, but instead of on one shaft they are on 2 seperate pieces. 
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