Official Baja SAE Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > Design Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Hill Climb, Grade %
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Hill Climb, Grade %

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
 Rating: Topic Rating: 1 Votes, Average 5.00  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
amateurbaja View Drop Down
Bolt Sorter
Bolt Sorter


Joined: Sep/21/2010
Location: dubai
Status: Offline
Points: 7
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateurbaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hill Climb, Grade %
    Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 3:24am
what is the maximum gradient the vehicle will have to climb at all the events in illinois ?
Back to Top
collinskl1 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Jan/21/2009
Location: Saginaw, MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 8:08am
Nobody knows this.  You aren't given a topo. map of the events, or even a course map until you get there.  This is an engineering design competition...  we have to design a vehicle that can perform over multitudes of different terrain configurations. 
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.
Back to Top
CobraCommander View Drop Down
Milling Master
Milling Master


Joined: Feb/03/2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CobraCommander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 8:15am

Anyone got a good guess as to what the Rochester hill was? That was steep grade for sure... I know we couldn't make it up very far... It's probably a good target to aim for as a past example of a hill climb.

COBRA Team Captain
Back to Top
Rob71zilla View Drop Down
Welding Master
Welding Master
Avatar

Joined: Feb/09/2009
Location: Utica, NY
Status: Offline
Points: 324
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 8:54am

My best guess would be 45 degree incline at the RIT track.  Depending on traction it's not difficult to make it to the top....doing it faster than everyone else is where the difficulty is

Robbie
Former Team Captain
SUNY Institute of Technology
Current Engineer for Remington Arms

A Redline a day keeps the carbon away.
Back to Top
CobraCommander View Drop Down
Milling Master
Milling Master


Joined: Feb/03/2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CobraCommander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 9:23am

Its a little more difficult when your car weighs over 600lbs with a driver... We're putting the car and drivers on a starvation diet this year...

COBRA Team Captain
Back to Top
EAD Motorsports View Drop Down
Welding Master
Welding Master
Avatar

Joined: May/26/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 109
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EAD Motorsports Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 10:16am
Nothing technical to add.

However, amateurbaja, you have make two consecutive topics with useless thread titles. Please try and make the titles something descriptive for future users.
Back to Top
collinskl1 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Jan/21/2009
Location: Saginaw, MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 11:02am
Originally posted by CobraCommander CobraCommander wrote:

Anyone got a good guess as to what the Rochester hill was? That was steep grade for sure... I know we couldn't make it up very far... It's probably a good target to aim for as a past example of a hill climb.

 
Chris can confirm this, but I believe it was in the neighborhood of 52*
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.
Back to Top
p.lewis View Drop Down
Welding Master
Welding Master
Avatar

Joined: Oct/05/2009
Location: Greater Detroit
Status: Offline
Points: 296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote p.lewis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 2:44pm
Is there enough detail in a topo map to figure out the grade on the hill at Rochester? (Google maps or something) Did anybody have a GPS unit on their car that logged elevation too?
Back to Top
RonGeorge View Drop Down
Welding Master
Welding Master


Joined: Apr/17/2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 8:31pm
Looking at pictures, its a short 40 foot climb in about 100 feet.
(40/100)*100 = 40% gradient at best.
arctan(40/100) = 22 degrees.

@rob71zilla's 45 degree slope estimation equals a 1:1 rise to run ratio, or 100% grade. To me, this is landslide conditions for mud and way too steep.

I circled two areas in the map where I think this hill could be.










Edited by RonGeorge - Oct/01/2010 at 8:32pm
-Ron George
Systems Engineer (Cummins Turbo)
Back to Top
AndyRIT View Drop Down
Organizer
Organizer


Joined: Nov/11/2008
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 193
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 11:06pm

Rochester hill climb was steep, I don't know the exact angle as it was never measured. It was part of the natural terrain/angle for the most part. It was tested by the track crew at the 05 race and decided it was a good hill and has been used in 05, 07 and 10.  We were thinking about using a steeper hill towards the right of the picture and video but we actually wanted cars to make it up. There is a lot more that goes into a hill climb then the angle of the hill such as the conditions. That hill was a lot harder in 07 then in 09 just because it was muddy.

As far as the Illinois track it is pretty flat, search for pictures of the 08 illinois race for your answer!
RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08'
2010 RIT Track builder
2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader
2012 Wis vol
2013 RIT Track Builder
Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines
Back to Top
Soccerdan7 View Drop Down
Organizer
Organizer
Avatar

Joined: Sep/22/2010
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 780
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soccerdan7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/03/2010 at 6:12pm
I would estimate the rochester hill to be about 30 degrees, having walked up and down it.  I can tell you that if it was more than 44 degrees our car would have wheelied and probably flipped under acceleration. We were pretty much footdown and had no real problems making it up, although I saw many teams struggle.

@RonGeorge - Nice pic of our car. Do you have any more?
Danny

Cornell

(fall'07 - spring'12)
Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon
10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins
Back to Top
Tantum View Drop Down
Bolt Sorter
Bolt Sorter
Avatar

Joined: Jun/26/2010
Location: Rochester
Status: Offline
Points: 31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tantum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/12/2010 at 11:37am
My estimation from looking at the video and pictures  is also ~30 degrees.
~ Nick
Back to Top
collinskl1 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Jan/21/2009
Location: Saginaw, MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/13/2010 at 11:26am
I'd bet a paycheck that it was quite a bit over 30 degrees...  Our car can drive up staircases all day (45 degrees) and we had some trouble with that hill.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, dirt vs. concrete I know, but still.
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.
Back to Top
RonGeorge View Drop Down
Welding Master
Welding Master


Joined: Apr/17/2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/13/2010 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

I'd bet a paycheck that it was quite a bit over 30 degrees...


Cool. I could use that money.
-Ron George
Systems Engineer (Cummins Turbo)
Back to Top
AndyRIT View Drop Down
Organizer
Organizer


Joined: Nov/11/2008
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 193
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/13/2010 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by RonGeorge RonGeorge wrote:

Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

I'd bet a paycheck that it was quite a bit over 30 degrees...


Cool. I could use that money.
 
I guess you better go out to hogback hill and measure it! LOL pictures for proof
RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08'
2010 RIT Track builder
2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader
2012 Wis vol
2013 RIT Track Builder
Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines
Back to Top
collinskl1 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Jan/21/2009
Location: Saginaw, MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/14/2010 at 8:48am

Unless I'm remembering things wrong Chris Reedy measured before they made the first run up the hill in June.

Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.
Back to Top
RonGeorge View Drop Down
Welding Master
Welding Master


Joined: Apr/17/2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/14/2010 at 9:42am
Originally posted by AndyRIT AndyRIT wrote:

Originally posted by RonGeorge RonGeorge wrote:

Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

I'd bet a paycheck that it was quite a bit over 30 degrees...


Cool. I could use that money.
 
I guess you better go out to hogback hill and measure it! LOL pictures for proof


I ride a lot of steep hills on my bike and have an appreciation for approximate steepness. Either case, I have an accelerometer on my wrist watch that works fairly well if you orient it along the direction of the incline. Oh gosh, enough of this gradient talk....
-Ron George
Systems Engineer (Cummins Turbo)
Back to Top
AndyRIT View Drop Down
Organizer
Organizer


Joined: Nov/11/2008
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 193
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/14/2010 at 10:53am
So much talk about "gradient" and "angles" about an old track; an actual number would put this whole thing to rest. BUT every track is different, I would just say we have to drive up steep hills with different surfaces.
 
You guys are talking about betting money on the incline of a hill, really. Ron you are the closest person that is still on a team on this forum, and the person who called out the bet.
 
So have at it.
RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08'
2010 RIT Track builder
2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader
2012 Wis vol
2013 RIT Track Builder
Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines
Back to Top
collinskl1 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Jan/21/2009
Location: Saginaw, MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/14/2010 at 11:53am

Haha the bet wasn't serious... but really Andy is right.  There won't be another race at Hogback for a while, and every track day to day is different.  I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "We have to drive up steep hills with different surfaces."

The different surfaces are bad enough, not to mention the tuning involved to keep the cvt turning and not slipping, etc.  To be 100% honest, when I was team leader we didn't do any calculations as far as hill climbing goes, and really forgot that we werent pulling at RIT... so the hill was a surprise.  As long as your car doesn't have a suuuuper high final drive any hills in endurance will be manageable. 
 
Taking a loss of a few points in a single dynamic event is much easier than having a crappy all around car in my opinion.  I never really liked designing for one event, esp. pull or climb.  I liked a car that would perform in all arenas.
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.
Back to Top
KMiniBaja View Drop Down
Bolt Sorter
Bolt Sorter


Joined: Nov/17/2011
Location: Vallejo, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KMiniBaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/17/2011 at 9:47am
mod note: merged due to similarity
 
Has anyone ever measured the incline of the hill climb? 

My team has never run the hill climb before, and is designing for a 25 degree incline, is that steep enough? 
 


Edited by Mod Squad - Nov/17/2011 at 2:39pm
Back to Top
Akron 1998 to 2004 View Drop Down
Welding Master
Welding Master
Avatar
Thread Hijack Champion

Joined: Jan/20/2011
Location: WA
Status: Offline
Points: 327
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akron 1998 to 2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/17/2011 at 12:20pm

It could potentially be 45 degrees.  Its one of the events that varies greatly.

Back to Top
AndyRIT View Drop Down
Organizer
Organizer


Joined: Nov/11/2008
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 193
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/17/2011 at 12:20pm
I changes event to event, Last year we made our own at Peoria Evil Smile because we had the machines to do so. Turns out it should have been steeper.
RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08'
2010 RIT Track builder
2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader
2012 Wis vol
2013 RIT Track Builder
Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines
Back to Top
Rob71zilla View Drop Down
Welding Master
Welding Master
Avatar

Joined: Feb/09/2009
Location: Utica, NY
Status: Offline
Points: 324
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/17/2011 at 1:00pm
Andy, do you know what the incline is at Hogback?
Robbie
Former Team Captain
SUNY Institute of Technology
Current Engineer for Remington Arms

A Redline a day keeps the carbon away.
Back to Top
CLReedy21 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Nov/30/2008
Location: Marysville, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 736
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/17/2011 at 2:30pm
45-50 degrees would not be unprecedented.
-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni
Fourwheeler Drawer



"Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain."
Back to Top
AndyRIT View Drop Down
Organizer
Organizer


Joined: Nov/11/2008
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 193
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/17/2011 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Rob71zilla Rob71zilla wrote:

Andy, do you know what the incline is at Hogback?
 
 
I have no Idea.
 
There is a steeper hill at hogback that we may use next time RIT hosts Evil Smile
RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08'
2010 RIT Track builder
2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader
2012 Wis vol
2013 RIT Track Builder
Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines
Back to Top
collinskl1 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Jan/21/2009
Location: Saginaw, MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/17/2011 at 9:20pm
I think there should be a pre-run lap before endurance to check for cars that can't make it up said hill.  If a car can't hack it on the hill, have them take a gnarly much longer (time wise) bypass the hill.  It was dangerous to have cars get stuck on the hill, try to be pulled up and cause a traffic jam half way up the hill during endurance.  That's the only thing I didn't like about the '10 race there.  I was worried about getting stopped and slipping/rolling sideways down the hill because of someone in front of me being stopped.
Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.
Back to Top
p.lewis View Drop Down
Welding Master
Welding Master
Avatar

Joined: Oct/05/2009
Location: Greater Detroit
Status: Offline
Points: 296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote p.lewis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/19/2011 at 12:10am
Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

I think there should be a pre-run lap before endurance to check for cars that can't make it up said hill.  If a car can't hack it on the hill, have them take a gnarly much longer (time wise) bypass the hill.  It was dangerous to have cars get stuck on the hill, try to be pulled up and cause a traffic jam half way up the hill during endurance.  That's the only thing I didn't like about the '10 race there.  I was worried about getting stopped and slipping/rolling sideways down the hill because of someone in front of me being stopped.


Were people still getting stuck after the first couple laps, after the bottleneck was cleared out? The problem with that hill is that people need to have confidence to take the downside with speed  in order to make it up the hill on the other side. Once everybody understands that, it's a non-issue.
University of Rochester Alum
Back to Top
collinskl1 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Jan/21/2009
Location: Saginaw, MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/19/2011 at 2:55pm

There were times when it could have gotten sketchy real fast, but as you mentioned after the first few laps it wasn't ever blatantly dangerous haha.

Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni
2x Project Manager

Nexteer Automotive
Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering

... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer.
Back to Top
AndyRIT View Drop Down
Organizer
Organizer


Joined: Nov/11/2008
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 193
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/19/2011 at 9:33pm
The key to the hill at Rochester during the endurance race is to go fast down so you have the momentum to go back up the other side. There is really no option for a longer bypass around the hill because of the parking lot at the top of the hill on the left and the track does a 180* at the top to the right and pretty much comes back on itself.
 
Slow cars NEED to stay to the left side of the hill, this is key! Fast Cars on the Right.
 
RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08'
2010 RIT Track builder
2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader
2012 Wis vol
2013 RIT Track Builder
Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.