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    Posted: Jan/24/2009 at 9:04pm
Just wondering where people get their halfshafts.  What we've done in the past is take a stock polaris halfshaft (assembled with CVs on it), cut it and then weld in an extension.  As you can imagine we have reliability issues with the halfshaft breaking at the weld.

We've thought of making a custom axle and using the the stock CVs but we have never been able to remove one of the CVs from the stock axle.  Is there a trick to taking a CV off?

At the moment I'm leaning toward using aftermarket CVs with a custom made axle.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/24/2009 at 11:36pm
We use a Honda axle that we cut and weld.  We have done this for years and years with no problems with breakage.  This year we even had to weld square tubing on to the axles for slip shafts and still had no problems with breakage.  Could it be that your welds are bad?  What material are using to extend them with?  Can you describe your welding setup(filler, amperage, etc...)?

I don't have any experience with Polaris axles but it is definitely possible to take apart the Hondas that we use.  There should be a way to take your Polaris axles apart as well. 

I would examine your methods of lengthening them before resorting to the more expensive option of making a custom axle.

You could also search for a diagram of your part on www.bikebandit.com and see if there are some internal snap rings or something that you are forgetting to remove.  Talk to your local Polaris dealer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2009 at 1:07pm
We went the weld route and then switched because of reliability reasons.  We found someone local for us to mix and match halfshafts.  Try the www.cvman.com, he helped us put together as driveshaft that was the length we needed with OEM cv joints.  We had a honda outer joint, kawasaki inner, and a yamaha rhino axle.  The driveshaft was custom length and he was able to get it made for around $100 dollars.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2009 at 1:33pm
I'm not sure of the weld setup but the guy who did it was a welding engineer and was really good.

As for taking apart the axles we are able to get one of the CVs off fairly easily.  We've spent a lot of time trying to get the other end off to no avail.  Not sure what's holding it on.

grams,

the link you posted doesn't work. I've contacted a couple other companies before and none of them seemed to be of any help.


Edited by mu - Jan/25/2009 at 1:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2009 at 3:25pm
Sorry here is the contact info
 
CV Restoration
(301) 498-4326
 
The website was thecvman.com , but appears to be down right now.  I know they are still in business as we bought our shafts from them late last year.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2009 at 3:54pm
Thanks grams.  I'll check them out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote umbaja2009 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2009 at 6:47pm
We have always made our own halfshafts, although we use u-joints.  It really isnt that hard to do and we only use 1.25" x 0.095" tubing for the shafts.  Also, chamfer the ends of the tubes before welding if you havent in the past in order to get more weld penetration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/26/2009 at 4:38pm
To lengthen the shafts we cut them, machine a chamfer on both sides of the cut and bore holes into the stock half. The insert is machined out of .75" .188" wall 4130 tubing, and has similar chamfers machined onto each end, as well as a bit of a protrusion to fit with the hole bored in the stock part. It's then welded on the lathe. Not sure about welding specifics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue2kss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/26/2009 at 6:22pm
We have done a lot of experimentation with half shafts for our Formula car.  This year in Baja we will be using the same methods


As far as the experimentation, we have tried the following:  straight cut the insert and shafts, chamfer and weld in a lathe.  In our Formula car, the axles lasted two laps.

We have tried to fishmouth the insert, then weld, and those axles lasted one launch. 

Last, and most successful, we cut the insert at a 45 degree angle, and then welded it in a lathe.  EVERY axle with this method has lasted indefinitely, and had no issues.  Our Formula car from last year has not shown any signs of fatigue or failure, and we have thoroughly thrashed that car.

All welding was TIG with ER70S-2 filler, and since we could not get the axles apart, there was no heat treatment.  The inserts up to this point have been 4130, but 4340 would be preferable.


The insert wall and OD is dependent on the axle OD's and the power the engine produces.  This year we will probably buy 4340 tubing and go with that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thompm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/27/2009 at 10:03pm
This is advice for Yamaha Shafts only

When trying to extract the CV joint from it cup you need a screw driver, snap ring pliers and some force.
for the inside cub you simply remove the boot and use your screw driver to remove the retaining ring.  After pulling out the CV joint  remove the snap ring and the CV will slide off the shaft.
For the outside you will need some force and practice.  After removing the boot bend the CV joint to its maximum angle, Then continue to apply pressure and pop out the CV balls one by one to remove the joint.  The joint is held on to the shaft with an internal snap ring.  So more force is required if you want to completely remove the joint. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/01/2009 at 11:19am
Originally posted by blue2kss blue2kss wrote:

Last, and most successful, we cut the insert at a 45 degree angle, and then welded it in a lathe.  EVERY axle with this method has lasted indefinitely, and had no issues.  Our Formula car from last year has not shown any signs of fatigue or failure, and we have thoroughly thrashed that car.


We gave this repair a try last night. Took it for a spin in the snow afterward and it didn't break immediately, so that's good. Once we get the car out to our test track we will be able to more thoroughly beat the crap out of it.

I'll let you know how it goes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote karman1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/06/2009 at 10:07pm
Some inner CVs don't come apart without breaking the cage. We've welded axles all but one year, no problems. If the materials are different, I run a small bead of stainless, then build up one or two beads of ER70S2. I just crank up the amperage on the TIG and play with the pedal until I'm happy. We also drill the axle and extension and plug weld.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/19/2009 at 1:24am
Quick update: After a 4-5 hour stint at our track, the 45° halfshaft is still going strong. We will probably go with this method for the new ones as well. It's significantly faster to fabricate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gj67stang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/19/2009 at 1:17pm
Any chance of some pictures of these half-shafts and inserts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/19/2009 at 1:40pm
Here is a Solidworks Model of what we did. Cut it on a 45° angle, make an insert angled the same on both ends. Keep in mind it doesnt matter if they are misaligned along the axis, just that the angle is the same. I would use the same saw and do all the cuts at the same time. They dont have to be exactly 45, they just have to be the same. 45 just carries more load.

For this one we didnt even bother welding in the lathe. We just clamped it to a piece of angle iron and welded. Also, we chamfered all the edges to be welded using the bench grinder.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gj67stang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/26/2009 at 2:36pm
Thanks for the picture.

What filler did you use with the TIG?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/26/2009 at 8:16pm
ER80S-D2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zehlerdj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/04/2009 at 1:18pm
Did you just cut and weld these without any sleeves or keys along the shaft, We are looking into similar areas but adding a sleeve over the welded joint or a key possibly, any input?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/04/2009 at 1:25pm
My initial plan was drill holes and put a pin to hold it true. But then I got lazy. No Pin, no key, no sleeve. Cut and Welded. So far so good. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YonkersBaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/02/2010 at 11:34am
This year our team is planning on running an outlaw IRS rear end. The problem is that the wheelbase that we would like to have is a bit longer than what is possible with that rear end. Some of my teammates want to modify the axles by welding in a piece of something to extend the shafts. I have my reservations about doing that so I was wondering if anyone did that before and how did it turn out? Wheel spacers are out of the question when my team mates are concerned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTomasko2011 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/02/2010 at 11:51am
We managed to do it last year with Ranger IRS axles.  We used a slip fit piece of pipe over the driveshafts and welded the pipe on both ends.  Some teams cut the extensions at a 45* angle for more weld area, but instead of this we used 4 plug welds at each end.  Havent had a problem yet!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/02/2010 at 11:59am
The 45° cut method worked perfectly for us, and it's pretty easy to fab.

See this post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racers.baja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/02/2010 at 12:11pm
We actually just got done doing this yesterday.  We used the same rear end (outlaw IRS).  We used the 45 degree method as mentioned above.  We extended each half about 6 inches to give our desired track width.  Just take your time to get them trued up.  We clamped them in the angle to get them close with good tack welds.  Then put them back in the car and trued them up by marking the high points.  Some weld in the lathe and that works well also.  The diameter of the outlaw shaft is .940" if I remember correctly and we just bought a piece of 1" solid cold drawn (can't remember alloy) and turned it down to .940" to make it all line up good. 

Edited by racers.baja - Feb/02/2010 at 12:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BajaSaeAdmin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/02/2010 at 12:33pm

Try and search for an answer to your question before posting. This will make it easier to find what you want in the future.

That being said, I am merging the thread from YonkersBaja with the previous one on the same subject.


Edited by BajaSaeAdmin - Feb/02/2010 at 12:37pm
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okay, sorry about that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CobraCommander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/08/2010 at 10:14am
Our team has made a custom axles for our car as well, we have a Kawasaki differential and use the Polaris outer.

We simply use a tube sleeve for our extension, I'm pretty sure it's 1" .120 wall to start but gets turned down to a little less on the lathe to save some weight. We simply weld the tube and two rosets on each end and have never broken anything. Well except for the cv's but that's another story...

Plenty of strength and simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotty82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/24/2010 at 3:11pm

We have a team doing some testing on our VAR4340 axles .

Hopefully things will go good and we can offer them as a kit with common CV joints.
 
It will be pretty much like what we do in FSAE. A series of around 4 differant axles sizes
with 2 inches of spline on either end so they can be cut , and circlip grooves machined in them according to your track widths.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J.Cremer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/10/2010 at 9:02pm
Hey guys I'm new to the forum and to baja.

This is a little off topic but just wondering if anyone has dimensions for sportsman 300 polaris axles or any other polaris axles you might be running. Looking for length of the axle, cv's, and stubs at each end so I can figure out what kind of suspension travel I will be able to get out of the setup. 

Also does anyone know the max angle that the cv's can handle, we measured a sportsman 500 at 27 degrees at ride height .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 4:32pm
Axle Experts,
 
We plan on cuttin and extending the polaris axles, and before we have a go at one I'd like to ask a few questions. What precautions or processes were enfourced before making making the cut (we plan on cutting them at roughly 45 degrees as mentioned before)? What thickness would be recommended for the extension rods? After welding and making sure the axle is within tolerances, any heat treating? Some have mentioned they have not heat treated afterward and have been fine, doe sthis still hold true?
 
-Erik
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 4:41pm
We didn't heat treat ours, and some of them weren't even terribly straight. None broke after switching to the 45 degree method.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 4:48pm
Joe,
Any Jigging?
I was thinking about setting up a jig with pillow blocks or something like that
I saw the angle iron method but I'd like to see something better if necessary
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What, too good for angle iron? :-p

We never bothered with anything more precise. We could have gotten straighter shafts if we did, but we never had issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by adrive7 adrive7 wrote:

What, too good for angle iron? :-p

LOL Angle Iron and clamps would be give another reason for formula to poke haha
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We use 1.5" aluminum angles for our alignment jig.  If it works well, is fast, is simple, and it's cheap, what is there to really poke fun at?  Let them spend a week making their shafts.  I'll be out driving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue2kss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 10:15pm
I welded ours up in the lathe.  Nice and straight

(And for those who will claim that is a bad idea, they did it for years before I got there and I personally know several fabricators who do the same thing)


Edited by blue2kss - Aug/10/2010 at 10:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by ErikHardy ErikHardy wrote:

Axle Experts,
 
We plan on cuttin and extending the polaris axles, and before we have a go at one I'd like to ask a few questions. What precautions or processes were enfourced before making making the cut (we plan on cutting them at roughly 45 degrees as mentioned before)? What thickness would be recommended for the extension rods? After welding and making sure the axle is within tolerances, any heat treating? Some have mentioned they have not heat treated afterward and have been fine, doe sthis still hold true?
 
-Erik
 
 

Well, here is method that I prefer to use and the one that we have used for the last few years.

We cut the ends of the axle shafts off with a chopsaw since the hard axle material rapes bandsaw blades.  Chamfer the ends on the grinder, strip coating off with wire wheel, and wipe down with acetone a couple times.

Next, bore your extension to match each of your shortened axle stubs.    The axles that we use are very slightly different diameters on either end, so don't make the mistake of measuring one and boring all your tubes to that spec.  We make the bores tight enough that you can just barely slide the axle stubs in and out with your hand.  A healthy chamfer is put on the ends of the axle extension tubes to help during the welding process.

Then, the lathe gets fitted with the 4-jaw chuck and an extension tube is chucked up and indicated true. After that, the matched axle stub is slid in the ext. tube.  The lathe is shut off and put in neutral.  The welder ground cable is attached to the ext. tube.  

You will need one person to weld and a helper from here on out.

We then lay 4 small tack welds on the piece.  After those tacks, we indicate on the axle stub to make sure it hasn't gone crooked.  If it has, another small tack is placed 180* away from where it is high.  This pulls the stub back close to straight.  This indicating and tacking process usually takes a couple passes to get everything reasonably straight.  

Now, the helper slowly spins the lathe chuck while the welder lays a single bead all the way around the part.  No matter how much time you spend making the axle straight in the tacking stage, it will pull out of round after this weld pass.  The helper should check the stub with the indicator before the weld cools much.  If the axle has pulled any, a dead blow hammer can be used to tap the axle back straight before it has cooled completely.

Admittedly, this may take more time than the previously mentioned angle iron method, but we have gotten VERY straight axles from doing it this way.  Also, we have never broken an axle made in this way even though we don't cut on an angle, use rosette welds, or do any type of heat treating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by blue2kss blue2kss wrote:

I welded ours up in the lathe.  Nice and straight

(And for those who will claim that is a bad idea, they did it for years before I got there and I personally know several fabricators who do the same thing)

I was writing my long ass reply when you posted this.  I agree it is the best way to go about it.  I also agree that some will probably scream that we have ruined our lathes.  I would like to add that is definitely not a good idea to use a 3-jaw chuck to do this.


Edited by dillon_b12 - Aug/10/2010 at 11:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/10/2010 at 11:59pm

Dillion,

What thickness are the extension pipes if you don't mind?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue2kss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/11/2010 at 12:01am
Dillon,

I did the same exact thing that you guys do. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue2kss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/11/2010 at 12:03am
Originally posted by ErikHardy ErikHardy wrote:

Dillion,

What thickness are the extension pipes if you don't mind?



If memory serves me correctly, we used .120" wall after boring, 4130 welded with 70S-2 on our Dynasty 300 TIG.  I preheated the assembly before welding (dont recall the exact preheat temp) and let it air cool with no treatment afterwards


Edited by blue2kss - Aug/11/2010 at 12:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/11/2010 at 12:15am
Erik, 

First, there is only 1 "I" in my name. Wink

We use 1"x.188" wall tubing.  1"x.188" wall tubing has an I.D. of .624"  

Our axle stubs are usually around .720" so that leaves you with a final wall thickness around .140".

The tubing is 4130 welded with ER70S-2 rod.  We don't do any preheating, but I suspect that the light tacking process provides some pre-heating.  Also, once you do a full pass on one end, the whole axle is ridiculously hot.  I usually let it cool just until I can handle it with TIG gloves before I start setting up the other side.  There is still plenty of heat in the part when I start on the second end.

We also just let the axles air cool on their own.


Edited by dillon_b12 - Aug/11/2010 at 12:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/11/2010 at 12:33am

lol apologies dillon - lions must be on my mind

Hopefully with this added knowledge we will change the direction of our drivetrain, appreciate all of the help Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/11/2010 at 7:53am
We did pretty much the same thing that Dillon posted except we didn't weld them on a lathe.  Although that would have been a better way to do it, I just put them in a vice and welded 2 seperate beads, each being half way around.  I made the fit between the two components a tight press fit too and heated up the bored out end until it was red then slid the shalf into it. 
 
This helps keep the shafts straight but it can be easy to not get the proper length.  If the shaft doesn't go into the bore all the way then it will never come out again. This happened to me but I was able to make it up on the other end...luckily it happened on the first end so I had a chance to make up the difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/11/2010 at 11:05am
Have any of you that use the angle iron method checked to see how much run-out you are getting?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/18/2010 at 12:06am
Quick video from a previous axle making session.

I can't remember the exact amount of run-out these had but it wasn't much.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/18/2010 at 2:08am
that is beautiful!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rishabh685 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/19/2017 at 10:58am
hello everyone, i am new to the forum and was wondering what does an insert mean.
which the teams use to weld with their shafts, it would be helpful if anyone could provide with a picture.

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