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Rochester 2016

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toolmodel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toolmodel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rochester 2016
    Posted: Jun/16/2016 at 12:34pm
Hey Everyone,
Looking on any feedback on the race in Rochester this past weekend.

What went well, what wasn't quite so good.

Also are there any new things you think should be added?

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/16/2016 at 11:39pm
Paddocks at Gordon Field House were horrible... too packed and there were no good paths to navigate to the fieldhouse. I swear we went beside a different trailer each time we went up there. And some teams getting "premium" locations is just stupid IMO.

Design scores were a lot lower, but I guess that's because it's the last and toughest competition.

Pretty good dynamic tracks except accel being on ever-changing grass. Endurance was pretty good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jd896 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/02/2016 at 11:46am
Overall, the weekend was a lot of fun and a huge success, but there were some things I noticed that need to be changed to ensure the safety of competitors during the Endurance event. As a race director for several go-kart championships, including national and regional events, there are many times when competitors must be given a black flag, whether for parts falling off their kart or for on-track collisions. That being said, the black flag is given at the start/finish line and competitors are required to advance to the pit lane the next time they arrive at it. The pit entry is not right next to the start/finish line and, in most cases, takes nearly a full lap to get to. 

I can't fathom why the black flag was given in the same exact spot where competitors are required to pull off to answer it. That is incredibly dangerous to the officials trying to communicate the black flag and to drivers that are immediately behind the car being pulled off the track by the officials. There were several times where drivers had to check-up and/or take evasive action to avoid cars that were trying to suddenly, without warning, dive for the penalty box. The track is massive, it makes no sense to jeopardize anyone's safety like that, especially for a well-organized series like this that prides itself on safety advancements, such as the strict helmet regulations. This series allows a maximum of three years on SNELL certification, but almost all other motorsport bodies allow for ten years. I just can't wrap my head around such an obvious safety issue. The black flag should be communicated with a number board to indicate the car number at the scoring loop (finish line) and drivers should then proceed further down the track to the penalty box to avoid sudden stopping and maneuvering. 

Furthermore, I think there needs to be a drivers' meeting prior to the Endurance race (if there isn't one. I don't know if there was because I was at the carnage meeting and was not the driver). There were multiple occasions where yellow flags were displayed and drivers came to a complete stop, even if there was adequate room to advance around the indicated incidents. It's not enough to put the flag rules in the rulebook, they must be talked about at a drivers' meeting. I always make it a point at my kart races to talk about the flags because of how incredibly important they are to communication. 

Also, why did no corner workers have red flags??????

All-in-all, the event was a lot of fun for my team and we learned a lot, but viewed from my race director's cap, the officiating was a nightmare. I am more than willing to lend my experience as a national race director to the Baja SAE events to ensure proper communication and safety of the drivers, officials, and carnage crew members. Feel free to shoot me an e-mail at justin.dittrich@stonybrook.edu if you would like a further expanded review of what can be added, altered, and overhauled. I live for motorsport and enhancing the experience for everyone; Baja SAE is no exception to my passion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toolmodel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/02/2016 at 9:14pm
Thanks for the reply Justin.  As I see you are pretty new to Baja there are a couple things I'd like to follow up on:

Black flags were handled the same way at Rochester as they have been at any Baja race I have been to.  Staffing is always incredibly tight at these events and it would be very difficult to display the black flag at a location other than the "penalty box".  The thought of having a sign board to alert drivers prior to the box is a very good one and we may be able to work something out in the future.

As for the exact location of the black flag area, it did turn out to be much more blind for drivers than we expected.  Black flag is always located just prior to the pit exit since many flags are due to mechanical failures.  This particular spot was nice in some respects but was difficult for the drivers.  We plan to improve all of this for future races.

You mention the start/finish line, in this series it is incredibly common for cars not to start and finish in the same spot.  The race was started near the area that became fuel pits later in the race.  The Finish line (that was also used for scoring) was just in front of the main grandstands.  Where exactly these fall for each race is very track dependent since we need such a large area to line up cars for the start (and do so quickly).

As for a drivers meeting, there is always a team captains meeting on Saturday afternoon which the endurance are supposed to be at.  This is when all of the flags, rules and general procedures are explained.  As an organizer I think moving this to Sunday morning could be beneficial for retention (as a team member I would have hated it, there is never enough time that morning to get ready for the race), at this point the schedule is controlled by SAE and not the local organizers so any change would have to be made by them.

It has been decided by SAE that red flags will not be spread throughout the course.  In this series Red Flags are only used to stop the race in an emergency, every effort is made to keep the race running if at all possible.  There are always a couple red flags around the course if stopping is needed, in the last 6 years I can only remember 1 time it was used.

Overall the team that executed the Rochester race is one of the most experienced of all the events currently running.  Pair that with the consistency that the National Techs bring and it is a skilled and hard-working volunteer staff.

I hope this clears things up, if you have further thoughts feel free to message me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jd896 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/02/2016 at 10:57pm
I totally get the tight staffing, as that is and always has been an issue for the karting races I attend as well. As I recall, there were two or three officials stationed at the penalty box, so I don't think it would be a stretch to relocate one to, say, the finish line (in reference to the Rochester round, since the finish line was only two turns prior to the penalty box in front of the main grandstand) to communicate it safely to the drivers. Of course, I also recognize the difficulty of ensuring the correct car is notified of the black flag, which is why I suggested the number board to be used in conjuction with the black flag (I'm always hot-headed after a race when a driver ignores a black flag more than twice). 

I do understand the location of the penalty box, but the issue isn't where the penalty box itself is located, but rather that the black flag is communicated right in front of the penalty box. This is where the danger arises because a driver would see it, freak out, and jerk hard left to acknowledge the flag. This presented a danger to any chasing drivers because they had to evade the suddenly maneuvering vehicle. So the only thing I'm suggesting that needs to be changed is where the black flag is communicated

I did mention start/finish line, but that was only an example since in my karting series, the start line and finish line are located in the same spot, but I later recognized that difference and do realize that the race in Rochester started and finished in two different areas. Apologies for the confusion. (I was stationed at the first turn in front of the main grandstand, so I got to watch the race start and the checkered flag be thrown)

Baja is definitely a time consuming event, since these are essentially home-made cars and a lot of time is required to make sure everything is running efficiently and smoothly. That being said, I think it would be very wise to move the aforementioned meeting to Sunday morning to ensure all Endurance drivers are on the same page. Like I said, there were occasions that people don't recognize situations such as yellow flags doesn't mean completely stop and wait for the marshals to direct you. It's simply a warning that there is an incident ahead and to prepare to stop, based on the driver's judgment. 

I didn't see any red flags, so I guess I jumped to that conclusion too quickly. I had walked a fair distance across the track before heading to the station I settled into and it seemed like no one had any red flags, which I thought strange because they are mentioned in the rulebook. Of course we always want to keep the event moving whenever possible, but in my experience, I always hound the tracks I travel to to ensure each corner has a red flag so that drivers can be communicated to as quickly as possible so the track can be "killed" and any emergency can be attended to safely. Of course, this is a different discipline, so this is probably way harder to achieve. 

I don't mean to bash anyone that worked and organized this event and I probably wrongly implied that. My fears and emotions as the thoughts of the weekend came back a little too strongly and I probably emphasized that too much in that post, so let me be a little more clear: The entire weekend was well-run and organized and a whole lot of fun, but I feared that the safety of competitors and officials was compromised somewhat due to the aforementioned reasons. Of course, I have a little more insight thanks to your response, but I do think there is room for improvement and I only come on so strongly because I want everyone to be safe. I think Baja SAE is a great event and a great opportunity for students, but it is the duty of all motorsport bodies, whether it's the FIA or the organizers of SAE Baja and their competitors to ensure the maximum is done to protect the safety of everyone. That is the motive for my concerns.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Brad SXT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/03/2016 at 4:19pm
We identified a very similar issue when we were planning Midnight Mayhem this year. Mike Zieman and Louisville Alumni were able to design and build digital light screens that supplement the flaggers. These light boxes are controlled from a central location and allow the whole course to go red at once and identify which areas are yellow.

They can also act as a sign board displaying car numbers. I can tell you right now though that it's extremely likely the driver will totally ignore their number flashing on the board. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jd896 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/03/2016 at 4:52pm
That's great that you were able to use those. I've been to some large races as just a corner worker where a light system was used in supplement. They're really neat tools to use.

My idea isn't supposed to just be shoving the driver's number in their face. The flagger would wave the black flag and hold out the number board simultaneously.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toolmodel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/04/2016 at 10:04pm
Putting a flagger in advance of the box makes sense, but as you previously mentioned the drivers have trouble following flags already......

Trying it couldn't hurt

One big difference we have with black flag compared to many other series is that our average lap times can be over 8 minutes depending on the course.  So if a car needs to be pulled due to safety concerns and they get missed for one lap, it could be over 20 minutes in an "unsafe" condition.  And if you've ever read the black flags list you'd see just how common this is.  I think Brad can speak to a particularly pesky fire extinguisher in El Paso...

Brad those signs were exactly what I was speaking about, hopefully we will see some of those this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jd896 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/06/2016 at 2:04pm
Well, like I said before, there would still be an official(s) in the penalty box, so they could still do as they've done before and yank people off the track as they need to. In my experience, I've only ever had one driver flagrantly ignore the black flag (mostly because in many road racing series, if you ignore the black flag, you get sanctioned with fines, penalties, and/or race bans), but I'm well aware that people may fail to acknowledge it simply because they:
A.) Don't know where to go once the black flag is commanded since it's not directly at the penalty box, or
B.) They forget

I saw the Rochester black flag list shortly after the Endurance race was completed, so I know it's a lot to keep track of. Of course, getting an unsafe car off the track is a priority. The rules for Baja already have provisions for drivers failing to acknowledge the black flag, however (10 min penalty for the first infraction and discretionary thereafter). The flag rules even state "... they must be obeyed without question." The drivers aren't being overloaded as they would in, say, a go-kart. Speeds are much slower and there is much less focus on "lines" and "apexes" than regular road racing. Many students in these cars haven't been on a hot track before (outside of Baja, in my interactions with other teams last year), so they're just focused on surviving. I don't think it's a lot to ask from them to ensure any driver of the Endurance race understands the two or three command flags that are important (yellow, red, black)! At least, I even think a brief drivers' meeting prior to the Endurance race to remind them all and to answer any questions would be beneficial. Or start throwing the rulebook at them. 

Of course, nothing I suggest is the law of the land. I'm not even 100% certain that this is the right solution to it all, but at least it would be a start. What do you think, toolmodel?
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