2012 Auburn pics and results |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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This is our second 1st place finish and both times our suspension designer decided to benchtest the frame on a high speed endo.... I could do without that late drama in the future
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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Go big or go home!
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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Rob71zilla
Welding Master Joined: Feb/09/2009 Location: Utica, NY Status: Offline Points: 324 |
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Sounds like he knows exactly what it takes to win! |
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Robbie
Former Team Captain SUNY Institute of Technology Current Engineer for Remington Arms A Redline a day keeps the carbon away. |
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dillon_b12
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/15/2008 Status: Offline Points: 781 |
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Pedro UFPBaja
Baja Godfather Joined: Mar/03/2010 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 886 |
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pics from FB
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Former Team Captain
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Pedro UFPBaja
Baja Godfather Joined: Mar/03/2010 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 886 |
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Former Team Captain
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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First lap of endurance... pardon the camera shake, our driver was hauling some serious ass
Edited by Soccerdan7 - Apr/28/2012 at 5:51pm |
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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Pedro UFPBaja
Baja Godfather Joined: Mar/03/2010 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 886 |
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Former Team Captain
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Akron 1998 to 2004
Welding Master Thread Hijack Champion Joined: Jan/20/2011 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 327 |
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The fish eye camera is a bit disorienting, that is a very rough course. Anyone dent their rims on the first lap and run the whole thing on flat tires? |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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Akron, Still think your vintage swingarm and tiny rear tires is the best solution in the modern competition?
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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Akron 1998 to 2004
Welding Master Thread Hijack Champion Joined: Jan/20/2011 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 327 |
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Rocks, half burried telephone poles, and railroad ties haven't changed much in the last 8 yrs. But I would upgrade to 20" rear tires. The 18"s are strictly for MX tracks no rock crawl, IMO.
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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That response was much less belligerent than I have come to expect about the touchy subject of your divine approach to rear suspension. The closest car to your old setup was Oklahoma and they won accel and manuv and finished 8th overall but were substantially back from us, OSU and RIT for a podium position.
I have seen the competition evolve over the last 5 years and it is very difficult to follow the old approaches since the courses are not traditional MX style races anymore. Even TTU and USF abandoned their old designs in trying to stay on the cutting edge of the competition.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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CLReedy21
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/30/2008 Location: Marysville, OH Status: Offline Points: 736 |
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But we still ran that Auburn course in 09 with our second team car (a swingarm-ed terra-tired beast) and took overall dynamics, 7th in endurance (with 2 rollovers), and 4th overall. Swingarms are perfectly competitive if you do them right.
Oh and a swingarm won the Auburn race in 06... The TTU decision to move away from the swingarm was as much about the opportunity to develop new systems and build "our own" car as it was perceived performance gain. I'd bet any of you $20 right now that I could spend a week working on the TTU 07 car and take it to top 10 at a race. That vehicle is STILL a benchmark for how our cars should perform. I'll be sure to do an exhibition run of S&T in that car at TTU '13 to show you what a swingarm can do.
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-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni Fourwheeler Drawer "Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain." |
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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I think that any suspension type can do well provided they are tested and set up corectly. Im sure that Chris and the TTU team know how to tune the TTU 07 car to extract 99% of its potential given the amount of experience they have with it. unlike a new car that is "theoritically" better but not as well tested/tuned. I know now I would rather run an average car at 99% than a great car at 75%...The average car would probably do better too. |
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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That sounds like a timeline problem more so than a design choice problem. If you can get a new car driving in January or February than you can have it set up at 90% or more even if it is radically different. And a 90% setup all new car is enough to win a race and be further tuned and refined between competitions.
Building an average car just because you understand the ins and outs of it from previous years is an easy way out for a decent overall finish but it doesn't push the competition in terms of innovation and it will likely not win 1st overall these days (or make it to design finals). I do not mean to go bashing over team's philosophies as there are clearly multiple ways to interpret a baja car and develop a successful design. I just wanted to point out an evolution in what teams are doing and which teams have been winning in recent years.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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CLReedy21
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/30/2008 Location: Marysville, OH Status: Offline Points: 736 |
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Wrong again carbon breath! :)
09 at Auburn saw a swingarm in design finals, right next to an IRS car from the same school. It all comes down to how you execute it. And again I'd bet that if we dusted off our posters and put a couple of our best spin men in place that a swingarm car would again make an appearance in design finals. Everybody hates on the swingarm and assumes that it doesn't require any development or skill to successfully implement when that just isn't the case. The dynamics of our cars of old were very well sorted out and the structural analysis that went into the topographical optimization of the swingarm was and probably still is some of the highest level engineering that has gone into a baja car. Sure it's not a sexy multi-speed gearbox, but the beauty of the swingarm is that it eliminates the need for such an item. It's easy to downplay the swingarm for being "just" a swingarm but they pose their own unique set of problems. I'm an indy design guy and I would choose an independent setup were I to design a car tomorrow however I have significant respect for the swingarm platform.
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-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni Fourwheeler Drawer "Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain." |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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I never said it wasn't well-engineered or is easy to run a proper swingarm. I was saying that, in general, many teams run what they are familiar with simply because it is familiar and are afraid to explore something new that is untested but has potential to be better. I am proud that our team is the polar opposite of that and had to learn our lessons to minimize risk to a calculated level with some of our wilder ideas. A swingarm, if done correctly can still be a good overall finisher. Especially in a water competition. I am doubting the ability for it to win against a car like ours or Laval's on the recent land-only tracks. In the case of your 2009 experience, I recall a ferocious endo on the tabletop on the new car that can't have helped its cause and hearing that a lot of stuff was too new and untested, but a little refinement and evolution brought you to last year's winner. The only remaining swing arm cars that immediately come to mind are Oklahoma and Northeastern (and maybe USF if they ever come back). I applaud their designs and overall finishes in Auburn but I can tell you there won't be many teams switching to that design any time soon.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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paasch
Welding Master Joined: Feb/17/2009 Location: Corvallis, OR Status: Offline Points: 234 |
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I know I'm a little late with this, but I'd like to express my sincere congratulations to Cornell for an outstanding performance at Auburn. I hand timed your S&T run, and remember thinking at the time that you guys won the competition right there.
OSU scored 936 points at Auburn, more than enough to win any of the 2011 and 2010 North American competitions. But it wasn't enough at Auburn, as Cornell posted the highest BajaSAE score since 2009. Again, my congratulations, especially to Andrew and Danny. We look forward to seeing you again in Wisconsin.
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Bob Paasch
Faculty Advisor Oregon State SAE |
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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What I meant with an "average" car would be to instead of spending another 2/3 month taking 10-15lbs out or optimizing motion ratio, you would spend that time testing/tuning. I really liked Ann Arbor's 2009 car with the 4-link solid axle. It looks like a very good compromise between a swingarm and an IRS suspension. EDIT: Dr Paasch, you are right. I was extremely surprised when I saw the 955/100 score by Cornell. I thought that was unheard of but Sherbrooke did 966 in 2009 at Auburn as well. Edited by jeiB - Apr/30/2012 at 9:52pm |
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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Thanks for the acknowledgement, but it was a full team effort of 30ish people. Andrew and I are simply the ones who troll these forums instead of having actual lives. Hell, neither of us are even captains this year. The real thanks should go to David as he drove almost every event (including that suspension demolition) and deserves the most praise for winning the competition.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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For example, I saw some videos from the Univ of Tennessee-Chattanooga. They came 10th overall, 11th in ST, 41st in Hill, 40th in Manuv, 61st in Accel, and 8th in Endurance. I don't want to bash their car but the dynamic scores show that it is far from a top performer and yet they finished 10th mainly due to their strong finish in endurance.
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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OctoberSky
Welding Master Joined: May/20/2009 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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I think that the balance is pretty delicate between innovation, testing, and tuning. My biggest challenge as a designer hasn't been finding time to design and build with a month less of school than most universities, it's been trying to design components that are tunable, light/efficient enough to perform well, but also robust enough to last through a difficult tuning regiment and competition(s). Our best car was built for the 2010 races, and while I would never even think of going back to that design again, I know that as implemented it has outperformed the last two cars I've worked on. We will see what happens this week in Oregon with UCLA's newest model.
I, like Cornell, am often of the mindset that it is possible to "max out" a given design, and at some point I get bored with doing things the way they are, even if the new way isn't worked out perfectly. Last year, however, I realized just how frustrating it is to have a car with a lot of potential that "almost worked" due to problems during out testing phase, and we made a conscious effort to tone down the mad science a little bit in pursuit of higher placement across the board. Like I said, we will see what happens.
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UCLA Racing
2010-2012 Captain "we'll never win mini baja" -Cheddar |
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dillon_b12
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/15/2008 Status: Offline Points: 781 |
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I wish we had had even a third of that when I was still heavily involved. Our guys took 5th with 5 guys in Alabama this year. There are a few more working behinds the scene that didn't make it to comp., but I can't imagine what it must be like to have a crew of that size.
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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Dillon, do you still do baja? |
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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That big of a team is a blessing and a curse. Once you get above like 10-15 people it becomes a project management nightmare for the leaders. Every year has a core of 5-10 people who design and build like 85% of the car. For every person outside of this core group who is good and reliable to get their stuff done, there is someone who produces inconsistent results, is not reliable and may disappear during pre-competition crunch time, knowing that other people will pick up their slack. I would greatly prefer about 15 people at times, but our huge team allows for things like a 5 person electrical team to do data acq and display stuff and a 5 person composites team to do all of our body, seat, steering wheel, guards, floors, etc which is nice. I have great respect for all of the teams with fewer than like 8 people because that requires real commitment and a hard work ethic from every person involved to create a successful car.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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dillon_b12
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/15/2008 Status: Offline Points: 781 |
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Nope. Graduated in '10, but I only live about 1.5 miles from the shop so I stop in from time to time to annoy the current guys.
Edited by dillon_b12 - May/01/2012 at 12:19pm |
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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Ahah, that's my new job too, Master Criticizer! |
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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dillon_b12
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/15/2008 Status: Offline Points: 781 |
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I know what you mean. Even in years where we had more than 5-7 guys around, it was still those 5-7 guys who did the vast majority of the work.
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Akron 1998 to 2004
Welding Master Thread Hijack Champion Joined: Jan/20/2011 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 327 |
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I see how you provoke me Danny. Yet you turned down my offer to go head to head against one of my “vintage” cars this Sunday at Washougal MX Park. Rather convenient that you failed to sign up for the west coast competition months before I issued the challenge. When the only car with the "vintage swingarm" in a sea of IRS vehicles wins maneuverability and dynamically out performs all the top 10 teams (except Cornell), I think you should take notice. Clearly the design judges underestimated Oklahoma, but the static portion of the competition is as much if not more so a beauty competition / popularity contest. Shiny red paint jobs on formed carbon fiber panels serve no function yet gather many points for completely unrelated systems (its human nature to appreciate aesthetics). Regardless, Cornell deservingly won……..this time!!! |
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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Oh come on! They aren't gonna do a cross country trip and spend close to 8k just to race you. Akron, you are too entertaining. Edited by jeiB - May/01/2012 at 12:28pm |
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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Oklahoma's success was due just as much if not more so to their low weight and tiny accel driver rather than their swingarm. Any decently tuned car that weighs 337 lbs with a Gaged CVT can win dynamics these days depending on luck and driver skill. Their car was very impressive and I don't mean to take anything away from their great result, I am just commenting on the differences in the modern competition that an old man like you may not realize.
Also, Oklahoma had the shiny red paint job and big fancy panels while we were minimalist for weight reasons and almost no red paint on the car. Our car was definitely the least aesthetically dominated this year compared to the other 4 cars I have been involved with. We took 2nd in design with a thoroughly engineered car with some innovative new features on it. Building a finished car that looks nice and sellable definitely helps in design presentations but we certainly do not treat it like a "beauty contest."
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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Akron 1998 to 2004
Welding Master Thread Hijack Champion Joined: Jan/20/2011 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 327 |
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Thats the problem with youngsters these days. A little success and they belive they're the all time best.
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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All this because we don't think swingarms are the SH*T... You certainly seem to think that you are the all time best... |
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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+1 I think we should just leave it there and let Akron dream like its 1999.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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Akron 1998 to 2004
Welding Master Thread Hijack Champion Joined: Jan/20/2011 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 327 |
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I didn't start this, wasn't even invovled in 3/4 of the trash talk.......................................Maybe not the best, but I'm easily in the top 3 all time!!!
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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Not you, your team might be, unless you designed, built, competed all on your own. |
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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otto
Milling Master Joined: Oct/06/2011 Location: OR & Colorado Status: Offline Points: 100 |
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Dr. Paasch - Thanks and good luck to you guys in Oregon this weekend. As was already said, doing well at competition is a team effort (regardless of size) and is a culmination of proper planning, but most importantly being ready for anything (we had our fair share of scares during endurance...). I'm looking forward to Wisconsin - the team turnout (and being the last competition of the year) looks like its going to lend itself to some healthy racing! p.s. If OSU baja has any work for a grad student for the next 2 years... you know where I'll be |
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Cornell Baja 2008-2012, suspension stuff
Oregon State 2012+, saw chain & some more baja |
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AndyRIT
Organizer Joined: Nov/11/2008 Location: Sheboygan, WI Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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That is a very bold statement to make as there is over 30 years of baja history. |
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RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08' 2010 RIT Track builder 2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader 2012 Wis vol 2013 RIT Track Builder Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines |
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Akron 1998 to 2004
Welding Master Thread Hijack Champion Joined: Jan/20/2011 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 327 |
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Came close to doing that in 2004..........seriously, me and a few freshmen qualified to turn wrenches. One of them could weld better than me. I can honestly say that car was 90% me and I missed 1st overall by 4 points that yr. Believe it or not.
But seriously, how did this threads devolve into being about how good I am?
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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Because you claimed something that you can't back up and every other successful team would beg to differ with. This is not an individual competition no matter how much you want to think it is.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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dillon_b12
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/15/2008 Status: Offline Points: 781 |
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It devolved into this because you are present in it. I don't mean to personally attack you, but it seems your primary agenda when joining this forum was to observe what current teams are doing, tell them how they are doing it wrong, and brag about how unbelievable you were/are. As someone that competed for a number of years, I'm sure you have a wealth of knowledge to contribute to this forum and community. Please, contribute in a meaningful way. What is the purpose of this whole competition if everyone is to build the same car?
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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^ That. I don't come here and post to argue/fight. I want to share ideas and knowledge about this awesome opportunity that is Baja SAE. Edited by jeiB - May/01/2012 at 2:30pm |
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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To get this thread back on track, here is a nice photo album I stumbled on to from TTU's facebook.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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njgedr
Welding Master Joined: Oct/05/2010 Location: Ortonville MI Status: Offline Points: 194 |
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Just found this pic in your album, great picture, it will probably end up on our website
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Rowan Baja 2009-2012
Auburn 09 Peoria 11 Epreuve Du Norde 12 Auburn 12 Wisconsin 12 Mubea Development Engineer |
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dillon_b12
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/15/2008 Status: Offline Points: 781 |
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It would be nice if some of these large pictures were re-sized a little before posting.
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schooter
Organizer Joined: Feb/22/2010 Status: Offline Points: 224 |
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Was just paging through and noticed the pic below. First off, great pic!! But....anyone know if the geometry in the front was setup to toe in during droop or what's up with the toed in tires? Just curious. Congrats to everyone! Just bringing something to compete with is alone a achievement, let alone the outstanding performance of the top teams. I'd like to give a shout out to John Hopkins for making it into the top 10. If I'm not mistaken, they're a young team w/o years of design or experience to back them up. Way to go! |
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Chase Schuette
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaseschuette/ |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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Just to clarify, these are not my pictures or anyone from Cornell. I simply came across this guy's flickr when I was looking for pictures. He also has some from Birmingham 2011 and stuff as well.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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paasch
Welding Master Joined: Feb/17/2009 Location: Corvallis, OR Status: Offline Points: 234 |
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The Oregon organizers currently have the '08 OSU car for testing their event layouts. I'm pretty sure you could talk one of them into a little swingarm/IRS head-to-head. I'd suggest you start with the Rock Crawl. |
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Bob Paasch
Faculty Advisor Oregon State SAE |
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JeremyB
Organizer Last one standing Joined: Oct/13/2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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Akron was a powerhouse at Midwest when I was in school*. At the same time, they were too chicken to come to the East (water) event, with the exception of 2004- where they placed a ho-hum 20th. [/turd in the punch bowl] *FYI, Graduated in '03. Started organizing races in '06, began tech. inspecting in '08, and helped create this forum. I've seen some things.
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CLReedy21
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/30/2008 Location: Marysville, OH Status: Offline Points: 736 |
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The pics are courtesy Tony Marable who is a staff photographer at TTU. If you are interested in using them for anything or just want the hi-res versions you can get in touch with him at tmarable@tntech.edu he's a really cool guy who has been coming to races with us and shooting for years.
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-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni Fourwheeler Drawer "Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain." |
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