Show Your Junk: 2012 Edition |
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VivaLaShay
Bolt Sorter Joined: Feb/23/2011 Location: Norfolk, VA Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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This is what happens when you jig too much
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ODU Baja
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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reminds me of this...
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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S&Tminer baja
Milling Master Joined: Jul/27/2010 Location: Rolla, MO Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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Our jig setup was necessary since our Student Design Center keeps kicking members out. It provided that extra set of hands that our welder needed.
Speaking of, we should have a "Show Your Junk: Shop Edition." That would be interesting.
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-Carl Lacy
S&T Miner Baja SAE Jaded Old Consultant/Frame Design Team Captain 2009-2011 Public Relations 2008-2010 Missouri S&T; Rolla, MO |
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ErikHardy
Baja Godfather Joined: Apr/12/2010 Location: Hood, Flint, MI Status: Offline Points: 939 |
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Pictures/cameras in the shop should be strictly prohibited. What happens in the garage stays in the garage.
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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I got a camera when I was in school for the sole purpose of taking baja pictures... and it hasn't been used since I graduated!
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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It's sad I actually know which university this is... |
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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The big Oregon state poster sorta gives it away doesn't it?
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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T Fears MS&T
Bolt Sorter Joined: Aug/15/2011 Location: Rolla Mo Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Yeah...
Hopefully your saying this becuase u dont want evidance of shenanigans and not becuase you think that frame pictures taken well over halfway in the season might show up in competitors designs. If so, more power to them. Nothing were doing hasnt been done already.
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ErikHardy
Baja Godfather Joined: Apr/12/2010 Location: Hood, Flint, MI Status: Offline Points: 939 |
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Evidence of shenanigans! Forklift adventures, flipped over cars etc.. I've got no problem showing people our stuff. Yall can look at our competition results from the previous years to see what your copying if you want... or I can just tell you that it has been poor
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abenn
Milling Master Joined: Mar/15/2010 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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I would definitely agree that a shop "tour" thread would be very interesting. Our shop is pretty much a closet that we share with 3 other student groups.
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Andy Benn
Northeastern University Baja SAE http://www.facebook.com/nubaja http://www.numotorsports.com |
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clarkson_baja
Bolt Sorter Joined: Sep/08/2011 Location: Potsdam, NY Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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Our high tech 3D frame jig hard at work before pieces are tacked in place
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RKS2108
Bolt Sorter Joined: Mar/14/2010 Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Michigan Tech’s progress. New F-N-R box with a final weight of 15.5 lbs. Set up for MTU’s custom CVT system (more pictures to follow). The chassis this year will allow the entire team to be legal. Note the ‘interesting’ front suspension points and gearbox mounting setup. Edited by RKS2108 - Feb/13/2012 at 8:54pm |
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ErikHardy
Baja Godfather Joined: Apr/12/2010 Location: Hood, Flint, MI Status: Offline Points: 939 |
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Holy sh*tt Nice job
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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So that thing under the floor that's dogged down... is that part of the frame?
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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RKS2108
Bolt Sorter Joined: Mar/14/2010 Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Yep, We are trying a removable front clip...
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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Do you have a history of destroying suspensions? Why make it removeable? Now clean up those wrenches!
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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RKS2108
Bolt Sorter Joined: Mar/14/2010 Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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No we have never had any suspension issues-the idea was to be able to change suspension geometry easily. Time will tell if it is worth the trouble...
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ErikHardy
Baja Godfather Joined: Apr/12/2010 Location: Hood, Flint, MI Status: Offline Points: 939 |
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Are you guys sticking with the carbon fiber control arms?
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RKS2108
Bolt Sorter Joined: Mar/14/2010 Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Possibly... They are expensive on the cost report, and no one likes to work with fiber. |
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BSC-Baja2012
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/09/2011 Location: Buffalo State Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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What did you guys break at Peoria last year? Every time I turned around you guys were in your pits.
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Buffalo State College
Wisconsin 2012 Team 32 |
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RKS2108
Bolt Sorter Joined: Mar/14/2010 Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Well, we only went to the Kansas comp, but we broke a steering shaft, battery mount, and had some CVT fasteners wander away. |
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Purduebaja
Welding Master Joined: Sep/19/2010 Status: Offline Points: 137 |
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Nice gearbox, we will be posting pictures of our first fully custom gearbox once we get the housing all machined. Currently looking at doing some cool designs on the outside haha.
15.5 lbs for FNR? Does that include gears, shafts, bearings, seals, diff (looks like you dont have one anymore but I cant tell) and gear oil? That just sounds really light. We run a single speed double reduction with decent weight saving geometry and stub tooth profile to get extra small pinions and even then just the gears themselves weigh about 5 lbs and housing about 6 lbs Also, looks like you've made some major changes since Coughlins era. Before you guys ran an internal sprocket reverse, huge custom locking diff, and major weight savings on the web of your gears. Back then they were claiming under 25 lbs. Would you care to summarize the reasoning behind the design changes? There's a pic I found below of your old setup. |
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Purduebaja
Welding Master Joined: Sep/19/2010 Status: Offline Points: 137 |
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Also from what I can tell thats a $7500 tube notcher. We were looking into similar tube notching equipment but went with grinding on the old bench grinder due to cost. How do you like it and how long would you say it takes to do each tube? We are thinking about getting an endmill based notcher for next year to share between our formula and baja teams so some feedback would be much appreciated.
Edited by Purduebaja - Feb/15/2012 at 12:46am |
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RKS2108
Bolt Sorter Joined: Mar/14/2010 Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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The 15.5lbs includes everything but the oil. This box uses 14 pitch input and reverse gear sets and a 12 pitch output set. The old box you mentioned had 14 and 10 pitch gear, I believe. It is surprising how much weight can be saved by reducing the gear pitch. Also, the gear reverse is much lighter than the old chain version; we also do not have a differential, which saves a couple more pounds. We plan on milling out some of the gear bodies, but have not had time yet. The diff did not seem to be worth the extra weight and complexity. This year we are using thin race bearings, which help cut more weight. The tube notcher was purchased before my time, so I do not know how much it cost. It is not very fast, but it is a major step up from the hole saw notcher. I would say 4-7 min to notch a tube. The notcher we have uses a 1” endmill which can be rotated eccentrically to notch up to 1.75” tubing. |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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4-7 minutes!?! That's an eternity compared to the holesaw notcher I have at home! I notch 1.75 x .120 wall DOM in 30-45 seconds without wreaking havoc on the holesaw.
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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A hole saw can do the notch is one pass. In the end mill type notcher (which we have as well), you have to work your way through your tube, so it takes longer. It is also very difficult to notch very thin tubes (<0.049"WT) with the notcher we have.
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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When I was in school we used our Bridgeport mill from time to time... while it did take a while, I don't remember it taking that long. The notches were certainly nicer though.
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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jeiB
Baja Godfather Joined: Jul/17/2009 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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Our notcher certainly does not take over 2 minutes.
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Jeremie B.
McGill Baja Racing 2009-2011 Captain minibaja.mcgill.ca |
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AndyRIT
Organizer Joined: Nov/11/2008 Location: Sheboygan, WI Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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The trick to getting the notch done fast is a close rough cut, that way you don't need to notch away a ton of material. Our Notcher at rit is too loud and made a mess so everyone hated it. When I was doing frames a couple years ago I prefered a bridgeport, a hole saw and a good angle vise.
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RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08' 2010 RIT Track builder 2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader 2012 Wis vol 2013 RIT Track Builder Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/05/2009 Location: New York, NY Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Some nice work posted!!
We're a pretty small, inexperienced team (Competed last in Rochester 2010 and Im the only member of that team left). Anyway, were going crazy trying to get everything done by April... Here's some pics of our progress so far. Our gearbox should weigh in around 35 lbs. (staight up reduction gearbox with integrated diff)... Its all using stock gears. We broke our input shaft in 2010, so higher safety factors all round (still lowering overall weight and adding the diff). And our diff (Detroit Locker)... Edited by Glen Kleinsasser - Feb/16/2012 at 9:20am |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012 Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011 |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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Why do you guys have the CVT on the right (passenger) side of the vehicle, forcing your engine to aim the exhaust straight into your driver's lower back (I assume you will relocate it 90 degrees or so to point out one side)?
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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It gets cold on those endurance mornings!
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/05/2009 Location: New York, NY Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Yeah, we have heated seats with an adjustable exhaust deflector to control the temperature...
No, we are planning on relocating it as you stated. We have a three stage reduction gearbox which needs to be driven from that side (or we could have added another gear)... and the configuration we have enables us to drop the CG of the vehicle significantly (the engine is 12" lower than our 2010 vehicle). Also, it will enable the driver to access the pull-start while sitting in the vehicle. We figured relocating the exhaust is fairly trivial. |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012 Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011 |
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p.lewis
Welding Master Joined: Oct/05/2009 Location: Greater Detroit Status: Offline Points: 296 |
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I don't see it done very often, but reorienting the pull-start is fairly trivial too. 4 pop rivets.
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University of Rochester Alum
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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It is fairly trivial to relocate but we have found that it is fairly difficult to actually start the car with wrist restraints on during race conditions so we don't bother with that anymore.
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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I tossed around the idea of a significant re-route/re-design to enable a kickstart kind of deal for that very reason... it's hard to do much of anything with wrist restraints on, but the driver's feet are pretty free.
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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BSC-Baja2012
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/09/2011 Location: Buffalo State Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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I don't know why you even need one... Never in our 15 year history have we had a car stall on the track during an event or race. Even with a manual gearbox, the driver hasn't been dumb enough to stall it out. If you roll or whatever, you gotta go back to the pits anyways so whats the point?
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Buffalo State College
Wisconsin 2012 Team 32 |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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It would just make things easier... for instance: When you're driving by yourself, sometimes it's hard to start up and then jump in the car before it runs away.
Our cars were always tricky to start because of the generally high engine placement and the swingarm/axle sticking out behind the frame. You had to be really tall or stand on the tire to get to the cord.
With no reverse, there were times our CVT car could get stuck or run into an obstacle while heading up hill... with an engine cut off and a way to re-start we could "back up" by rolling down hill. Sometimes quick modulations of the kill switch would work, others it wouldnt. Likewise whenever we needed a push backwards, it was impossible with the engine running. If we could kill the motor and restart without relying on carnage crew to start, it would be faster.
In the end, the relative low payoff kept me from ever even sketching the system on a napkin.
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/05/2009 Location: New York, NY Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Yeah, we didnt give it too much thought... just figured it would be pretty easy to rerout the exhaust and it enbled us to use the short CV-Tech belts with the engine in that low position. Otherwise the cylinder and valve cover get in the way.
I originally wasnt too happy about it but i'm liking how its turning out. |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012 Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011 |
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logpace
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/09/2011 Location: San Luis Obispo Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Wow nice frames! Really like that MS&T Fast Frame fixture. We designed a sub frame for our car this year so we have easy access to our new gear box and CVT without having to take apart the whole rear of the car. On another note, our welder is getting stubborn and insists that he can weld ¼ inch gaps without any pre heat with a tig welder and he isn’t cleaning the notches before welding. Any friendly advice? |
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Logan Pace
Cal Poly SLO Baja "Failure is not an option." |
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ErikHardy
Baja Godfather Joined: Apr/12/2010 Location: Hood, Flint, MI Status: Offline Points: 939 |
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Why is there quarter inch gaps in the first place?
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logpace
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/09/2011 Location: San Luis Obispo Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Because he believes he can weld it so he did not remake the tab... So we got it remade :)
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Logan Pace
Cal Poly SLO Baja "Failure is not an option." |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/05/2009 Location: New York, NY Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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There should be no reason to pre-heat material that thin with tig...
1/4" gaps are weldable but should be avoided. If you are careful when welding it I dont think you lose much structurally, as you can make sure your weld is thicker than the wall thickness. It really sucks welding big gaps on 0.035 material though and often the extra time spent welding gaps would be better used cutting new pieces. Welds will look better too. |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012 Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011 |
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logpace
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/09/2011 Location: San Luis Obispo Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Well with the preheat I meant on our tubes, .035 up to 069... And we just had a gap that big on a tab, 2 different examples. Do you think it's not necessary to preheat the tube welds in general? It's just we don't really have a good jig system in place to prevent warp...
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Logan Pace
Cal Poly SLO Baja "Failure is not an option." |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/05/2009 Location: New York, NY Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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If you're tig welding, preheating definitely isn't necessary. Even with Mig welding, if you have your settings right you shouldnt have to preheat anything except maybe >1/4" thick plate.
If you are concerned about warping, just get each joint tacked together well before welding.
We didnt use much of a jig... 2 pieces of plywood and a few conduit straps. |
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Glen Kleinsasser
Team Captain CCNY BAJA 2012 Team Captain CCNY Supermileage 2011 |
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ffriolet
Bolt Sorter Joined: Feb/20/2010 Location: Québec Status: Offline Points: 37 |
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We work with Sodel's metallurgic engineer for 3 year to improve our weld on the frame. Some of they advise were:
We did in 2010 a lots of destructive test on weld tube (different Amp, different rod, different slow cold, different pre-heat). In conclusion, each tube that was pre-heat and slow cold had a tendency to break at a higher force. It's not necessary to do this, but it can advoid disaster or increase the stiffness of the frame.
Edited by ffriolet - Feb/16/2012 at 9:05pm |
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Fred Friolet
Baja ETS Team captain 2012 Design leader 2011 Driver 2011-2012 |
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S&Tminer baja
Milling Master Joined: Jul/27/2010 Location: Rolla, MO Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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How exactly do you ensure a "slow" cool on a weld? Do you just not blow on it? Haha!
But really, how slow are we talking? To get martensite, you almost have to quench most steels. Granted, our frame material has a pretty high surface area:volume and so heat escapes pretty quickly, but you don't keep a flame on it or anything do you? Wrap it with fiberglass maybe?
The metallurgical side of things is so often overlooked, it is cool to see a team that actually tested different processes and materials. I'd be interested to see how dramatic the differences in yielding were.
For instance, we had two different welders for our 2011 car, and after competition it saw a major rollover or two. Several welds from welder A cracked, and none from welder B cracked. Had this happened in a race, weld preparation/process/quality could have DQ-ed us. It's a big deal!
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-Carl Lacy
S&T Miner Baja SAE Jaded Old Consultant/Frame Design Team Captain 2009-2011 Public Relations 2008-2010 Missouri S&T; Rolla, MO |
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S&Tminer baja
Milling Master Joined: Jul/27/2010 Location: Rolla, MO Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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-Carl Lacy
S&T Miner Baja SAE Jaded Old Consultant/Frame Design Team Captain 2009-2011 Public Relations 2008-2010 Missouri S&T; Rolla, MO |
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logpace
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/09/2011 Location: San Luis Obispo Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Well thanks for the advice! Ffriolet, could you go more into detail about how you ensured a slow cool on your welds? And S&T thanks for the comment, I'll definitely be showing him this post when we work today.
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Logan Pace
Cal Poly SLO Baja "Failure is not an option." |
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ErikHardy
Baja Godfather Joined: Apr/12/2010 Location: Hood, Flint, MI Status: Offline Points: 939 |
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Any idea what was the main difference from Welder A & B?
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