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RonGeorge View Drop Down
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    Posted: May/12/2011 at 1:00am
I spend a few hours combing through that thread where an inventor came in to clarify his position on a new suspension design. Ref - http://forums.bajasae.net/forum/vxi-suspension_topic725.html

It was hilarious at first but then I thought the ganging up was totally unnecessary. Atleast I was the only one interested in knowing where he came from and what his experience was. No one bothered to ask him.

It perhaps projects the elitism that young engineers, especially those just out of school, tend to carry (and yes, that means the big bunch of us). Yes, its a proud moment to be in that special group of people who can do trigonometry with a scientific calculator and use CAD for FEA but the projection of the proud "I belong to this club and you don't" attitude can rub some other people the wrong way if you don't use it with caution.

I also noticed that some experienced people were shooting down the idea with words like "complex", "high unspriung mass" etc. Interestingly, when I approached the forum with what could be a good topic on the myth of "high unsprung mass" and its implications  http://forums.bajasae.net/forum/effect-of-unsprung-mass_topic705.html,  not many wanted to participate. What happened there guys? No one wants to gang up on the folks from Protean and Lotus Engineering? Why? Because they happen to carry PhD level engineering degrees and did their due diligence?

From my observations, it is moot whether some of you who seem to participating here are really practicing engineering or just simply touting buzzwords from books in your shelf. I'm sick and tired of hearing "oh, go read Caroll Smith, if you don't, don't bother posting" attitude. And even more hilarious is the guy who slaps the unassuming with a so-called "quarter car model", telling him, thats how the suspension should behave in reality, go figure.

C'mon guys.

People like Caroll Smith and Milliken and the pioneers behind fancy models , no doubt, had a lot of experience in what they did but they don't have all the answers. The other day, I happened to sit in a room with Mr. D. Milliken (co-author of Race Vehicle Dynamics) and colleage of his who was presenting some fascinating material on tire testing. Most of the material applied to off-road racing scenario. When finally, I had enough, I got up and asked them some really questions on off-road tires. Both of them couldn't answer me very well, infact, the speaker (whom I won't name) almost projected a mocking attitude towards off-road tires as if there aren't much off-road vehicles around. After the discussion was over, I just confirmed what I already knew. The engineers from Calspan who were sitting behind the room couldn't answer any of my questions either. But that didn't lessen my appreciation of their contributions towards their fields. It just told me that being an engineer doesn't mean you know everything, nor are you required you to. But punishing someone with your little idea of the world from which you don't want to migrate from is unnecessary, infact, its harassment.

Give the inventor his break. He's consulting with an engineer from the UK and they'll do their scientific investigations. I reckon they'll bring back interesting findings. His idea, by far, isn't close to the craziest suspension ideas I have seen. When I attended the SAE World Congress, a Phd from either China or Taiwan presented a design that would see the suspension articulating, not up and down, but fore and aft through some really wild linkage mechanisms and hydraulics. Not only could I understand a word that he was saying because of accent, but I was a bit surprised to see that almost all other vehicle engineers in the room gave him a free pass without any questions at the end. :)

Just remember, almost everyone massively criticized Sir Whittle when he told everyone about his gas turbine idea. No one was ready to fund his wild plans. After going through absolute bureaucratic hell, he helped revolutionize long distance airplane travel by making it both possible and affordable.

So, don't be elitists. It doesn't look good on you.

-Ron George
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 2:40am
There is a difference between an elitist and somebody who has a general understanding of what they are talking about speaking to someone who doesn't.

While I'll concede that at points it seemed like the engineers were looking down their noses at the inventor it was only that way because the inventor didn't know what he was talking about in relation to his invention and it's supposed benefits.  I'd be willing to bet that D. Milliken et al were able to field your question, understand it, and respond to it intelligently if unsatisfactorily in the sense of new information.  The inventor who we all just got to know did not know his stuff and needed to better understand things like roll centers and roll stiffness which he had claimed to optimize that way he could avoid repeating the same bullet point virtues of his invention without any supporting information.

I didn't weigh in on whether it's a good idea or not because honestly I don't know enough about the subject to decide on it's validity.  I did however quickly gather that this guy was not a suspension expert by any means and did not even truly understand some of the claims he was making.

I do my best not to comment on anything posted on this forum unless I feel I can add something to the conversation, just like in your unsprung mass thread.  I have limited experience in a very narrow area of vehicle suspension design as it pertains to unsprung mass so I chose not to respond.  I am however very familiar with the springrate situation discussed in another thread so I lent my knowledge to the situation.

I'd like to point out that I find it pretty amusing that you of all people posted this thread.  If I had to single out any one person on this forum as a posterchild of engineering elitism it'd be you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 2:59am
Well, I have enjoyed putting some critical insight into some discussions on this forum, never thought I was practicing elitism. I made a conscious effort to step away from overstepping my boundaries for past several months. Show me some examples where I have engaged in ganging up on someone and making them feel small or stupid because they didn't happen to read a particular book?

Rest assured, I have an immense appreciation for people who are gear-heads. I think in many cases, white collars who do hands-on work on something for years can tend to know more than the clue-less engineer sitting up in the cubicle doing his design work. This comes from my experience working in industry. You just got to put into context who you're talking to. Like I said, I only expressed what I observed and it didn't seem very appropriate. Its best that the mods step in and prevent that kind of environment early on before the forum goes down the toilet. Alright, end of my spiel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 3:15am
I really don't want to start anything so I'll just say that you're very capable of being the engineer you described above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonGeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 4:11am
Originally posted by CLReedy21 CLReedy21 wrote:

I really don't want to start anything so I'll just say that you're very capable of being the engineer you described above.


You don't want to start anything but then run off with a vague remark. Like I said, through experiences, I figured how to apply a code of conduct to my conversations. But why is this thread about me now? Mate, here's the idea. People on this forum could use some skill in responding and treating people the right way. You can argue the inventor's attitude wore off towards the end, but he was just frustrated with a bunch of smart alecks acting like text book knowledge thugs.  Besides, do half the people who argue here even hold engineering degrees to call themselves really engineers? So its basically junior and senior level engineering candidates arguing with a non-degree holder who happens to have some experience off-roading. Who's really right? Neither him, or you, without some objective tests. But the pissing contest was just a bit off-the-chart.


Edited by RonGeorge - May/12/2011 at 4:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 6:00am
I really couldn't care about the situation with the idiot inventor.  He made a video about how awesome and amazing his suspension is using all sorts of engineering terms and acting like he knew his stuff.  The group found said video and started discussing it all on their own.  Inventor shows up and starts attempting to address criticism of his design.  The group starts asking questions and inventor replies.  Turns out he didn't actually know what he was talking about with his claims and a pack of rabid engineering students jumped on him.  Is it an ideal situation?  No.  But I don't see where it ran so afoul that someone needs to go out on a limb and teach the forum about the elitism amongst young engineering students.


Edited by CLReedy21 - May/12/2011 at 6:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 8:23am
That thread started out very civil, even when the inventor chimed in.  It progressively got worse when he failed to listen to others people's suggestions and criticisms.  Like it was mentioned, if he can't handle what went on in that thread (and the RC forum for that matter) then he stands no shot at selling his product to anyone no matter how good it is.  Not only did he fail to listen but every negative aspect that was raised to him was countered by him saying it fully optimized! or wait til version 3 or go prove me wrong.  We all know how we feel about people asking us to do their work for them.  Asims put in work to try to help us and the inventor however instead of appreciating that work the inventor came back with that's wrong change this change that. 

As I was reading that thread I thought some of the comments were slightly out of line but then after every post the inventor made, my opinion changed more and the more and I agreed with what people were saying and feel that they were all justified.  For me the icing on the cake was when Dr. Paasch chimed in with his input.  We all know how valuabale his knowledge is but the inventor obviously didn't so I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first.  Then Dr. Paasch posted again validating his credibility and giving a few real world situations from his experience and told us all to use this as a learning experience.  The way I interpreted that post was 100% aimed at all of us SAE members to basically use that whole thread and situation as a learning experience because we are most likely going to be dealing with this exact situation multiple times in our lives.  I did not interpret that post the be aimed at the inventor at all (but I could be wrong) however the inventor took it as a personal attack and basically said Dr. Paasch wasn't worth his time to listen too.  Dr. Paash has forgotten more than that idiot will ever know and his reaction just solidified how big of a tool he really is.

I know I basically just summarized the entire thread we are talking about but Ron, I would have to come back at you with.....how can you not understand why that guy was getting fired at like he was? We gave him credit for coming up with what he did and I think did a good job in the beginning of being civil about what we thought were the downfalls of his design.  If he had the attitude of "I think this thing can really go somewhere but maybe I am missing something and need some more eyes on it" then I think things would have gone differently. Instead his attitude was "I know this thing will go somewhere and anything anyone says negative about it will be countered with restating over and over again the bullet points of what it can do"

Sorry for the lengthy post
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeiB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 9:36am
Please, let's not head down the same road again...
 
To bring my opinion to the thread, I would say:
Maybe there is Engineering Elitism but when you think about it, it can be justified. We are the ones blamed/liable for any problems, safety or performance related of any design we sign off.
 
When we built something, we are always think about ALL the aspects, safety, feasibility, cost, complexity, manufacturing, revisions: the big picture basically.
 
And obviously I don't mean that we are allowed to bragg and belittled other people. He came to the forum to answer some questions and we expressed our opinions, that's it (obviously got out of hand at the end, but the beginning was fine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 10:28am
I'll try to distance my comments from the events of the "other" thread, and speak to the "elitism" issue. 
 
Do doctors, lawyers, or any other respected field sometimes come off as cocky?  Of course they do.  I think that in a field such as theirs (and ours) when someone puts in the significant time to be a master of their craft, a certain degree of swagger is deserved.  Similar to someone who has achieved the mark of PhD correcting someone who mistakenly refers to him or her as Mr. or Mrs. ____ instead of Dr.  That person ground it out for years to develop their skills and knowledge and expertise, they deserve to be called Dr. for darn sure!  (And I always smile a little when I see/hear it happen)
 
Does this mean we should be jerks or belittling of people that are "beneath" our status of designer?  No, of course it doesn't, but I believe we should use our status/title to better everyone.  I'm starting to go off-track slightly here, but I wonder how many of your schools participate in The Order of the Engineer?  Lipscomb does, TTU does, as do several others I'm sure... without divulging into the extreme details, it involves an "oath" that is taken similar to the hypocratic oath that healthcare professionals take, to use our knowledge and the resources that we are given to do the absolute best we can to better society through safe, sustainable, and honest designs.  We are given a stainless steel ring to wear on the pinky finger of our working hand such that we hear it clank against the work we do as a constant reminder of the pledge we have offered.  I personally do not wear the ring (because it doesn't fit well) but firmly believe in what the Order represents as a duty and responsibilty of myself as an engineer.  As jeiB says, we are the ones that protect society through the things we design, and it requires a great deal of responsibility.
 
It makes me cringe when I hear people (outside of our profession) say that they have "engineered" something or they are a ______ engineer. (someone that has not gone through the fire of our education and training)  Am I an elitist?  I guess I might be.
 
So basically, I think that engineers deserve a degree of swagger, and often wish that the title carried the stigma and understood respect that it once did. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 10:53am
Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:


It makes me cringe when I hear people (outside of our profession) say that they have "engineered" something or they are a ______ engineer. (someone that has not gone through the fire of our education and training)  Am I an elitist?  I guess I might be.
 
So basically, I think that engineers deserve a degree of swagger, and often wish that the title carried the stigma and understood respect that it once did. 

Remember that there is a segment of people in industry today who may not have earned a degree in their respective field, but have worked their way up into job titles that would typically require a specialized degree.  This segment is definitely shrinking, but it's still there.  After years of earning their title, should they not use it since they don't have a degree to match?

While still doing Baja, I always tried to be careful that I used words like "made", or "drew", for anything I came up with since I'm not an engineer and most anything I "designed" was non-critical and had little analysis behind it.  I know where you're coming from when people use language that they should not be.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 11:11am
Originally posted by dillon_b12 dillon_b12 wrote:


Remember that there is a segment of people in industry today who may not have earned a degree in their respective field, but have worked their way up into job titles that would typically require a specialized degree.  This segment is definitely shrinking, but it's still there.  After years of earning their title, should they not use it since they don't have a degree to match?

This happens a lot at my current employer and I'd say it can go both ways. Some people have an engineering title without the schooling and do very very well often times better than the engineers. Then there are some that can only search google well and don't deserve it. Then again some of the engineers can't get out of the theoretical world and can't tie there own shoes laces. So who knows personally.
 
I'm willing to bet dillon that you would be able to better "engineer/design/etc." something better than most engineers based off your experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 11:22am
Originally posted by ErikHardy ErikHardy wrote:

I'm willing to bet dillon that you would be able to better "engineer/design/etc." something better than most engineers based off your experience.

Erik, I appreciate that, but I don't think I'd go that far LOL.  Maybe some engineers, but not most.  If there is much math involved, you don't want my input lol.

I have immense respect for REAL engineers and engineering students.

Edited to add:  IMO, swagger comes from knowledge, not a title.  I'm sure you've all known at least one engineer that you'd rather not have designing airplanes/cars/etc...


Edited by dillon_b12 - May/12/2011 at 11:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote collinskl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 11:24am

Oh I definitely understand what you mean... I worded that poorly for sure.  I work with a few of those people myself, and they are highly respected.

I was mainly referring to website engineers, marketing engineers (not engineering sales), or sandwich engineer (a la subway) as people who are entirely out of the field of "engineering" as we know it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 11:28am
Originally posted by collinskl1 collinskl1 wrote:

Oh I definitely understand what you mean... I worded that poorly for sure.  I work with a few of those people myself, and they are highly respected.

I was mainly referring to website engineers, marketing engineers (not engineering sales), or sandwich engineer (a la subway) as people who are entirely out of the field of "engineering" as we know it...

Hey now! They are sandwich artists!  Nobody said it had to be strong, but that thing better look good.  Wink

(No disrespect to any Subway employees.  Unless you actually call yourself a sandwich artist.)


Edited by dillon_b12 - May/12/2011 at 11:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 12:04pm
Well said above.  There are people that graduated from the same school as myself with the same degree or at least an engineering degree that I am embarrassed to say have the same degree as me and there are other who make my degree look better and I am privileged to be around and learn from.

I'm sure that can be said of most degrees though....

There is definitely a fine line between arrogant and confident.  There are people who have no idea where that line is and there are people who know exactly where it is and know that there are certain circumstances that allow for that line to be crossed for various reasons Wink


Edited by Rob71zilla - May/12/2011 at 12:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTomasko2011 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 6:10pm
Im really glad this topic actually evolved into something. The first few posts really made my head hurt Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paasch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2011 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by Rob71zilla Rob71zilla wrote:

  The way I interpreted that post was 100% aimed at all of us SAE members to basically use that whole thread and situation as a learning experience because we are most likely going to be dealing with this exact situation multiple times in our lives.  

Robbie, that was exactly my intent. Thanks for making this clear.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LukeS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2011 at 12:33am
As a business student involved with SAE I see this all the time.  Its something I've gotten used to.

The attitude I get a kick out of is the: "Your wrong, let the engineers handle the engineering problems."  It gets really entertaining when you prove their idea is wrong...

Its all part of working with people that have different backgrounds.  Sure the thread did get a little harsh and the guy might not have been given the benefit of the doubt but that's life.  He's an inventor and inventors need tough skin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2011 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by LukeS LukeS wrote:


The attitude I get a kick out of is the: "Your wrong, let the engineers handle the engineering problems."  It gets really entertaining when you prove their idea is wrong...
It happens. Sometimes engineers overthink the problem and put all of their schooling and equations to work, meanwhile the common sense slips out the window. I'm sure you have proven them wrong and they have proved you wrong as well. As long as the problem does get solved in an timely & effective manner thats what counts. Different backgrounds and experiences keep the system/product in check.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 0530425 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 10:26am
HAHA!!!!

This thread completely makes my day! Nothing like a bunch of undergrad wannabe's comparing their swords all day long. Complaining that their tape measures are invalid, not the lack of length of their swords!




Edited by 0530425 - May/25/2011 at 10:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dillon_b12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 11:01am
Originally posted by 0530425 0530425 wrote:

HAHA!!!!

This thread completely makes my day! Nothing like a bunch of undergrad wannabe's comparing their swords all day long. Complaining that their tape measures are invalid, not the lack of length of their swords!



Good first post. Thumbs Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iwm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 11:22am
Originally posted by dillon_b12 dillon_b12 wrote:

Originally posted by 0530425 0530425 wrote:

HAHA!!!!

This thread completely makes my day! Nothing like a bunch of undergrad wannabe's comparing their swords all day long. Complaining that their tape measures are invalid, not the lack of length of their swords!



Good first post. Thumbs Down

I suspect this may be Mr. Dada, whom we have seen before... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob71zilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 11:29am
Jealousy is a horrible thing....
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Nope not MR. Dada. Currently doing my grad work in another field couldn't stand the narcsism of engineers. Had 3 top ten finishes in the endo during my time as team captain, without a lick of engineering classes. Believe it or not, once you get into the workforce your just another individual trying to make a living. Not some "self-ingested" elite that thinks they deserve swagger in their walk, because they completed four years of partying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CobraCommander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by 0530425 0530425 wrote:

. Had 3 top ten finishes in the endo during my time as team captain, without a lick of engineering classes.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 0530425 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 2:17pm
Illinois 08, Alabama 09, SC 10.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by 0530425 0530425 wrote:

Illinois 08, Alabama 09, SC 10.

Congrats dude. You've made an account on here but made an effort to make sure no one knows who you are so you can go around raggin' on people. You're not the first to try this and probably won't be the last. Nevertheless, it's not very amusing.
-Tom

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EAD Motorsports Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by tp tp wrote:

Congrats dude. You've made an account on here but made an effort to make sure no one knows who you are so you can go around raggin' on people. You're not the first to try this and probably won't be the last. Nevertheless, it's not very amusing.
 
Hopefully his alma mater will be nicer than him this weekend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote p.lewis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 2:44pm
For those playing along at home, 0530425 is from Pittsburg State University (the only school with top ten finishes in those competitions).
 
Anyways, to get back on track...
 
I defnitely think that what we learn in Baja SAE is that to be successful you need to learn to manage a project well. Part of that includes having polite engineering design discussions that quickly lead to decisions. We engineers can quickly turn arguments into pissing contests and lose sight of the fact that our employers just want us to solve problems quickly and within budget.
 
Our engineering education can mislead us into believing that to be successful you must have the correct solution (do homework correctly, answer exam questions correctly). We don't necessarily learn that real success in industry comes from working in groups to solve more complicated problems with much more ambiguity than the questions at the end of the chapter of an engineering text.


Edited by p.lewis - May/25/2011 at 2:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jarmumd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 4:00pm
I feel inclined to weigh in on this discussion, hopefully with a different perspective.  I currently work for a contractor to NASA.  So yea, I'm a rocket scientist.  I also love rock crawling, and those passions lined me right up with baja.  Here in north Alabama, most everyone is in some capacity an engineer, so there can be a definite predisposition from those who are not engineers to immediately put you into that "elitist box". 

It's your job to not represent engineers that way.  For instance, yesterday I was up on my roof with my roofing contractor (oh the joys of home ownership) - as he showed me what damage I had on my roof.  He's the expert, and I quietly learned all I could about what he had to say.  You learn from these people that while their math may not be exact to 0.0001, that they have the experience to get the job done in the appropriate valley between exactness and cost that represents practicality.  The work that NASA does is on the complete other side of that due to the exactness required.

...

Looking back, there are very few things that I can point to that I "learned" in college.  Most of what I do now I learned on the job (of course a prerequisite to this on the job training was a fundamental understanding that I learned in college).  But I think what defines an engineer is someone who has the diligence and willingness to try and solve a complex problem. 

I'll give you an example from my freshman year in my intro to aerospace class.  This class had only the most rudimentary math and concepts in it, didn't require calculus or linear algebra or variational calculus, but that didn't keep half of the class from dropping out of aerospace engineering to go into aviation management.  The common excuse was "not wanting to do math".  Look, I'm not good at math - really - but after staying up into the early morning and rarely getting more than 4 hrs of sleep (due to working at the shop first, gotta have your priorities!), I learned what I had to.  I forced myself to do it.

So am I elitist?  yea probably, but not because I am an engineer, but because I only respect those people who are willing to work as hard as I am, as diligently as I have.  So when an inventor comes along claiming to have a miracle suspension, I'm going to look and see "did you put the appropriate level of effort into this design?".  And I think we all saw that he didn't (even if the kinematics worked, there were practical issues like structural loading and compliance that he didn't adequately explain).  So I am going to dismiss his idea - but not my roofers.
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SAE Birmingham Race Organizer 11

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CobraCommander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 9:21pm
I agree whole heartedly with your post. I've got a unique perspective on the engineering elitism debate as well...

I grew up on a farm and while you might not like redneck engineering all that a farmer cares about is getting back to work and not having to make more repairs...Is it the most elegant solution? Not likely, but it will do the job for a long time and let him get back to work. Sometimes (especially on race day) it just has to work.

I've also since then had a career as a geotechnical and environmental driller... Basically if your not into civil engineering it's still pretty neat equipment involved in taking samples from hundreds of feet below ground for various civil and environmental engineering purposes... I was the expert onsite a lot of the time. However the fresh hires always thought that I was just the dumb guy who pulled the levers, more seasoned engineers would talk to me as an equal and ask my opinion (or have already consulted with my bosses before even bidding on the project) knowing how valuable the experience in the field could be.

So when I'm finally done school to be an engineer I don't want to be a prick to every contractor, technician, and machinist because I wear an iron ring... The whole engineers rule the world thing got way out of hand and needs to be kept in check with a little humility...

Oh, and I believe rocket surgeon is still more awesomer than rocket scientist... but still gets beat by astronaut.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnfar109 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 11:59pm
I will just leave this here ...



[XKCD]

It is important to remember that each has a unique set of skills with strengths and weaknesses, But only a fool thinks they are irreplaceable.  
- John Farnach

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