Hill Climb, Grade % |
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amateurbaja
Bolt Sorter Joined: Sep/21/2010 Location: dubai Status: Offline Points: 7 |
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Posted: Oct/01/2010 at 3:24am |
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what is the maximum gradient the vehicle will have to climb at all the events in illinois ?
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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Nobody knows this. You aren't given a topo. map of the events, or even a course map until you get there. This is an engineering design competition... we have to design a vehicle that can perform over multitudes of different terrain configurations.
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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CobraCommander
Milling Master Joined: Feb/03/2010 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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Anyone got a good guess as to what the Rochester hill was? That was steep grade for sure... I know we couldn't make it up very far... It's probably a good target to aim for as a past example of a hill climb. |
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COBRA Team Captain
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Rob71zilla
Welding Master Joined: Feb/09/2009 Location: Utica, NY Status: Offline Points: 324 |
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My best guess would be 45 degree incline at the RIT track. Depending on traction it's not difficult to make it to the top....doing it faster than everyone else is where the difficulty is |
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Robbie
Former Team Captain SUNY Institute of Technology Current Engineer for Remington Arms A Redline a day keeps the carbon away. |
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CobraCommander
Milling Master Joined: Feb/03/2010 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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Its a little more difficult when your car weighs over 600lbs with a driver... We're putting the car and drivers on a starvation diet this year... |
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COBRA Team Captain
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EAD Motorsports
Welding Master Joined: May/26/2009 Status: Offline Points: 109 |
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Nothing technical to add.
However, amateurbaja, you have make two consecutive topics with useless thread titles. Please try and make the titles something descriptive for future users. |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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Chris can confirm this, but I believe it was in the neighborhood of 52*
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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p.lewis
Welding Master Joined: Oct/05/2009 Location: Greater Detroit Status: Offline Points: 296 |
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Is there enough detail in a topo map to figure out the grade on the hill at Rochester? (Google maps or something) Did anybody have a GPS unit on their car that logged elevation too?
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RonGeorge
Welding Master Joined: Apr/17/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 286 |
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Looking at pictures, its a short 40 foot climb in about 100 feet.
(40/100)*100 = 40% gradient at best. arctan(40/100) = 22 degrees. @rob71zilla's 45 degree slope estimation equals a 1:1 rise to run ratio, or 100% grade. To me, this is landslide conditions for mud and way too steep. I circled two areas in the map where I think this hill could be. Edited by RonGeorge - Oct/01/2010 at 8:32pm |
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-Ron George
Systems Engineer (Cummins Turbo) |
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AndyRIT
Organizer Joined: Nov/11/2008 Location: Sheboygan, WI Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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Rochester hill climb was steep, I don't know the exact angle as it was never measured. It was part of the natural terrain/angle for the most part. It was tested by the track crew at the 05 race and decided it was a good hill and has been used in 05, 07 and 10. We were thinking about using a steeper hill towards the right of the picture and video but we actually wanted cars to make it up. There is a lot more that goes into a hill climb then the angle of the hill such as the conditions. That hill was a lot harder in 07 then in 09 just because it was muddy. As far as the Illinois track it is pretty flat, search for pictures of the 08 illinois race for your answer!
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RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08' 2010 RIT Track builder 2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader 2012 Wis vol 2013 RIT Track Builder Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines |
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Soccerdan7
Organizer Joined: Sep/22/2010 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 780 |
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I would estimate the rochester hill to be about 30 degrees, having walked up and down it. I can tell you that if it was more than 44 degrees our car would have wheelied and probably flipped under acceleration. We were pretty much footdown and had no real problems making it up, although I saw many teams struggle.
@RonGeorge - Nice pic of our car. Do you have any more?
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Danny
Cornell (fall'07 - spring'12) Former Captain / MEng / that guy with all the carbon 10 races, 7 top ten's, 2 overall wins |
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Tantum
Bolt Sorter Joined: Jun/26/2010 Location: Rochester Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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My estimation from looking at the video and pictures is also ~30 degrees.
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~ Nick
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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I'd bet a paycheck that it was quite a bit over 30 degrees... Our car can drive up staircases all day (45 degrees) and we had some trouble with that hill. Yeah, yeah, yeah, dirt vs. concrete I know, but still.
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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RonGeorge
Welding Master Joined: Apr/17/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 286 |
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Cool. I could use that money. |
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-Ron George
Systems Engineer (Cummins Turbo) |
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AndyRIT
Organizer Joined: Nov/11/2008 Location: Sheboygan, WI Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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I guess you better go out to hogback hill and measure it! pictures for proof
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RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08' 2010 RIT Track builder 2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader 2012 Wis vol 2013 RIT Track Builder Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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Unless I'm remembering things wrong Chris Reedy measured before they made the first run up the hill in June. |
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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RonGeorge
Welding Master Joined: Apr/17/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 286 |
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I ride a lot of steep hills on my bike and have an appreciation for approximate steepness. Either case, I have an accelerometer on my wrist watch that works fairly well if you orient it along the direction of the incline. Oh gosh, enough of this gradient talk.... |
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-Ron George
Systems Engineer (Cummins Turbo) |
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AndyRIT
Organizer Joined: Nov/11/2008 Location: Sheboygan, WI Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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So much talk about "gradient" and "angles" about an old track; an actual number would put this whole thing to rest. BUT every track is different, I would just say we have to drive up steep hills with different surfaces.
You guys are talking about betting money on the incline of a hill, really. Ron you are the closest person that is still on a team on this forum, and the person who called out the bet.
So have at it.
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RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08' 2010 RIT Track builder 2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader 2012 Wis vol 2013 RIT Track Builder Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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Haha the bet wasn't serious... but really Andy is right. There won't be another race at Hogback for a while, and every track day to day is different. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "We have to drive up steep hills with different surfaces." The different surfaces are bad enough, not to mention the tuning involved to keep the cvt turning and not slipping, etc. To be 100% honest, when I was team leader we didn't do any calculations as far as hill climbing goes, and really forgot that we werent pulling at RIT... so the hill was a surprise. As long as your car doesn't have a suuuuper high final drive any hills in endurance will be manageable.
Taking a loss of a few points in a single dynamic event is much easier than having a crappy all around car in my opinion. I never really liked designing for one event, esp. pull or climb. I liked a car that would perform in all arenas.
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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KMiniBaja
Bolt Sorter Joined: Nov/17/2011 Location: Vallejo, CA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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mod note: merged due to similarity
Has anyone ever measured the incline of the hill climb?
My team has never run the hill climb before, and is designing for a 25 degree incline, is that steep enough?
Edited by Mod Squad - Nov/17/2011 at 2:39pm |
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Akron 1998 to 2004
Welding Master Thread Hijack Champion Joined: Jan/20/2011 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 327 |
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It could potentially be 45 degrees. Its one of the events that varies greatly. |
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AndyRIT
Organizer Joined: Nov/11/2008 Location: Sheboygan, WI Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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I changes event to event, Last year we made our own at Peoria because we had the machines to do so. Turns out it should have been steeper.
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RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08' 2010 RIT Track builder 2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader 2012 Wis vol 2013 RIT Track Builder Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines |
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Rob71zilla
Welding Master Joined: Feb/09/2009 Location: Utica, NY Status: Offline Points: 324 |
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Andy, do you know what the incline is at Hogback?
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Robbie
Former Team Captain SUNY Institute of Technology Current Engineer for Remington Arms A Redline a day keeps the carbon away. |
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CLReedy21
Baja Godfather Joined: Nov/30/2008 Location: Marysville, OH Status: Offline Points: 736 |
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45-50 degrees would not be unprecedented.
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-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni Fourwheeler Drawer "Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain." |
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AndyRIT
Organizer Joined: Nov/11/2008 Location: Sheboygan, WI Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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I have no Idea.
There is a steeper hill at hogback that we may use next time RIT hosts
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RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08' 2010 RIT Track builder 2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader 2012 Wis vol 2013 RIT Track Builder Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines |
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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I think there should be a pre-run lap before endurance to check for cars that can't make it up said hill. If a car can't hack it on the hill, have them take a gnarly much longer (time wise) bypass the hill. It was dangerous to have cars get stuck on the hill, try to be pulled up and cause a traffic jam half way up the hill during endurance. That's the only thing I didn't like about the '10 race there. I was worried about getting stopped and slipping/rolling sideways down the hill because of someone in front of me being stopped.
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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p.lewis
Welding Master Joined: Oct/05/2009 Location: Greater Detroit Status: Offline Points: 296 |
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Were people still getting stuck after the first couple laps, after the bottleneck was cleared out? The problem with that hill is that people need to have confidence to take the downside with speed in order to make it up the hill on the other side. Once everybody understands that, it's a non-issue. |
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University of Rochester Alum
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collinskl1
Baja Godfather Joined: Jan/21/2009 Location: Saginaw, MI Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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There were times when it could have gotten sketchy real fast, but as you mentioned after the first few laps it wasn't ever blatantly dangerous haha. |
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Kyle Collins
Lipscomb University Alumni 2x Project Manager Nexteer Automotive Product Engineer, Electronic Power Steering ... and the 8th simple machine: a bigger hammer. |
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AndyRIT
Organizer Joined: Nov/11/2008 Location: Sheboygan, WI Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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The key to the hill at Rochester during the endurance race is to go fast down so you have the momentum to go back up the other side. There is really no option for a longer bypass around the hill because of the parking lot at the top of the hill on the left and the track does a 180* at the top to the right and pretty much comes back on itself.
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RIT Baja SAE Alumni 04'-09'
RIT Baja Team Manager 06'-08' 2010 RIT Track builder 2011 CAT/IL Comp Team Leader 2012 Wis vol 2013 RIT Track Builder Diesel Calibration Engineer-Kohler Engines |
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