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CRD Tube Profiling

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Purduebaja View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jul/30/2012 at 2:06am
Hey guys,

I wanted to know if anyone on here was familiar with a company called CRD Manufacturing based out of California. We are looking to have our tubes profiled this year to save several weeks worth of manufacturing time and would l would like to know if anyone has had a good experience with them.

Our FSAE team used Cartesian last year, and although the tubes looked great, there was a long lead time and they ended up paying a fortune for everything. Since then I have been looking for alternatives.

CRD is currently offering a deal of having all chassis tubes laser coped for $415 excluding shipping. They don't have CNC bending capabilities and you also have to supply your own tubes, but they have a local supplier they work with so that you only have to pay shipping one way. We are fine bending our own tubes since we usually have several compound bends which are hard to get right the first time even in a CNC bender. We would mainly use these guys to cut all our straight and one bend tubes.

In addition CRD is offering 5% off per referral to other teams up to 50% so if you refer your school's FSAE team thats an easy 5% off. Another convenient thing is that if your team uses Solidworks, like us, they can take your chassis model directly and start cutting, without you having to make up drawings of each tube and the angles and mitering required.

I really want to use these guys but want a second opinion before I make a final decision. Any help would be appreciated.

Heres the original forum post where I found out about them: http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/66520185051/r/39420346051


And heres of video of their laser cutting process:



Edited by Purduebaja - Jul/30/2012 at 2:08am
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kenneth.mandeville View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth.mandeville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/30/2012 at 7:06pm
I've used them at work before, they do really good work.

Just be careful, Tim may charge you for "CAD" which is usually generating the normal cut profiles or adding any etched PN's or bend starts.  It would be best for you to make the normal profiles yourself before sending the files.  He can also "Unbend" the tubes and etch in bend starts for rotation, but i'm not sure how much that will cost you.  The price seems pretty good considering the amount of hours it usually takes to do the tubes by hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawhitaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 12:09am
Hey guys,

Ive been a part of cal poly pomona's FSAE team the last three years and am doing Baja my last and final year. I've worked for CRD on and off the last 2 years and what he says about Tim is true. We've done countless formula cars and some bridge stuff for the civil comp on top of our regular customers, so the product is good but you'll get nickel and dimed if you go in blind.

Like my post on the FSAE forums says, the price is $415 for any FSAE/Baja chassis. Ive made instructional pdfs for both the normal profiling and tube straightening. Email me at david@crd-usa.com if you're interested.

For the most part, I don't think we've had too many complaints from teams. There have been some tubes that have been missing and or incorrect, but we know why and have typically taken care of any issues the same week. It's not perfect, but it's $415, allows you to supply your own sponsor supplied material if you're one of those lucky teams and we don't need drawings, just files. Ask around on the formula forums for an outsider perspective since we haven't cut any Baja teams before.

Feel free to shoot me an email. I may work for the guy but Ill be straight forward with you.

David
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 1:23am
I hate when baja teams outsource stuff like this!  I was a tube guy when I was in baja sent countless hours in front of a tube bender and a notcher/mill working on the chassis. It helped a lot with my fabrication skills that I now use in my career.
 


Edited by AndyRIT - Aug/05/2012 at 1:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawhitaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 1:37am
It's always a resource game. I started out on our formula team not any different than yourself, but it has it's place. For example, cal poly Pomona had a Baja team of maybe 6 last year. They notched and bent everything themselves and it cost them dearly later on when they had to make the call to pull out of comp. If they could have spent $500 and spent their man hours elsewhere, not a single one of them would still opt to do it by hand. Now I understand that's an extreme example, but some people are money poor and man-hour rich while others have cash pouring out of their pockets, but can't buy enough man hours.

I'll agree that the leaning experience is extremely valuable and often underappreciated by new guys, but if you never make it to comp then I guess that just makes you a bad ass tube notcher?

David
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 11:58am
I would have killed to have 6 dudes!! Personally I think chassis fabrication is the easiest/fastest part of the build. There is no reason why the chassis should take more than a month to build by one person (bending/notching included). Butttt I don't want to get off track, laser notched tubes are wicked cool thanks for offering up the service!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawhitaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 12:05pm
Well in comparison, once we have all the tubing cut (which takes 1-2 days) we can fully mig weld a pro 2 unlimited frame in one weekend with 1 guy welding. So if $415 could buy you an extra month of testing would you still say no?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErikHardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 12:26pm
My answer to your question would not prove your point Wink. I find the experience of gradually grinding metal off just for the perfect fit to be very informative. I felt it transferred directly into the chassis design phase of, that notch was absolutely a pain in the ass, don't ever do a design like that again. I'm trying to speak for the engineers still in school, who need to take manufacturing into account and how some things can truly be a pain to fabricate. 

But I think your example of the Pro 2 chassis is a bit different, professional engineers, fabricators, etc. They have all been through the phase of doing things manually and just want to get things done. But I'm getting way off track so I'm not going to post anymore on this threadSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue2kss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 3:23pm
I had this debate when I was still competing and always said "lets just build it ourselves guys, it's a huge learning experience for fabrication, etc"

Once I graduated and the guys left over asked my opinion since the "experienced" guys left I changed my tone quite a bit.  The time saved is huge, the tolerances are par none, it IS a design and program management competition with fabrication mixed in but not the main focal point of the competition, and the time saved can be spent doing the other million things that need to be done during the year. 

Now, I still believe the frame fabrication portion of this competition is extremely important, but I think you have more to gain saving the time and devoting it to testing like previously mentioned.  Running a torsional resistance test on a frame that more closely resembles the CAD model because certain tubes aren't an 1/8" out of place or plane, driver experience, test data, suspension and CVT tuning, etc.  Hell, even making sponsor site visits, recruitment, attending trade shows (the PRI show comes into mind for the south eastern teams), amongst other things are options that all too often get put to the way side during the year.

It all comes down to team size, dedication, and priorities.  If I was running a team again I would have the frame outsourced and get it welded in a weekend and move on to other things.  But that's just my .02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyRIT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/05/2012 at 4:54pm
I just have a old school mind set. I think there is a lot gained from machining and building as much of the car as possible. When you are machining a part that you designed and see a screw up that you made you learn from that and it will help you when you get to the real world.  Just about every Machinist/Fabricator hate engineers because the majority don't know how to design a part to be manufactured easily.
 
 
In 06-07 RIT did 2 cars from the ground up and still had a month+ of testing before the first race. We had about 15-18 (full-time, just about everyday) people that were a part of the direct team. We had anywhere between 2-4 people working on the frame. We still had time to do the sponsorship thing, car shows as a break from work and even driving the old cars.


Edited by AndyRIT - Aug/05/2012 at 4:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawhitaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/06/2012 at 2:11am
I didn't mean for this to turn into a debate. Trust me, been there done that when I was on the team, and I argued against the outsourcing for the very same reasons you all have listed. Despite it being an engineering comp and not a manufacturing comp, the two probably play an equally important role in both the learning and the success. We all have our own ways of doing it, and I wouldn't say any one way is better or right, they have their own strengths.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SAEBajaTechs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/19/2014 at 8:46am
I would make sure you guys clearly understand the rules before you ask this company to do work for you!  If you have a method to bend, cut, weld or grind your tubes then you would not meet the requirements to have your tubes fabricated from this company. 
 

A6.1 Student Created

The vehicle and associated documentation must be conceived, designed and fabricated by the team members without direct involvement from the professional engineers, faculty or professionals in the off-road and racing communities.

A6.2 Professional Fabrication Limits

Vehicles which have been professionally fabricated may be disqualified from the competition. If a team does not have access to machine shop facilities, the frame can be professionally fabricated without penalty. Lack of access must be documented (letter from the faculty advisor, copy of policies which prohibit machine shop access, etc.).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote i6overboard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/19/2014 at 11:17am
Originally posted by SAEBajaTechs SAEBajaTechs wrote:

I would make sure you guys clearly understand the rules before you ask this company to do work for you!  If you have a method to bend, cut, weld or grind your tubes then you would not meet the requirements to have your tubes fabricated from this company. 
 

A6.1 Student Created

The vehicle and associated documentation must be conceived, designed and fabricated by the team members without direct involvement from the professional engineers, faculty or professionals in the off-road and racing communities.

A6.2 Professional Fabrication Limits

Vehicles which have been professionally fabricated may be disqualified from the competition. If a team does not have access to machine shop facilities, the frame can be professionally fabricated without penalty. Lack of access must be documented (letter from the faculty advisor, copy of policies which prohibit machine shop access, etc.).





Our team does not have the funding to get tubes profiled so we're not personally in this boat, but I dont see where this violates the rule!?!?! Bending and coping is an incredibly boring job and can be done with nearly any hand tool you could dream up (even a hand file), so in that case every team can cope tubes. But seriously, throw someone out because they had tubes laser profiled? If we had funding id do it to speed up production..

Next thing, how do you even prove someone had it done? Not like its any different than hand notching once its welded.. 


JR


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krowx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/19/2014 at 5:50pm
During my time in the BAJA SAE series i always wondered about this ruling since it seems more and more teams are outsourcing their frame. I definitely see the appeal especially with the more complex bars. I know our team is looking to send out a couple of our more complex bars to get made next year, because we are always making sacrifices when hand bending and coping them into place. Im interested to see what the ruling is on this topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SAEBajaTechs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/23/2015 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by krowx krowx wrote:

During my time in the BAJA SAE series i always wondered about this ruling since it seems more and more teams are outsourcing their frame. I definitely see the appeal especially with the more complex bars. I know our team is looking to send out a couple of our more complex bars to get made next year, because we are always making sacrifices when hand bending and coping them into place. Im interested to see what the ruling is on this topic.

The ruling is that you are not allowed to do this unless you don't have access to facilities that allow you to make the component.  Being complex is not an acceptable reason to outsource.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krowx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/23/2015 at 6:58pm
Im fairly certain almost every team that uses these services have access to a bender and bench grinder like we do.

So what you saying is because we are incapable of using our hand bender and our bench grinders to the accuracy needed to build our frames. That we would violate the rules by having it outsourced. Our frames are overweight by comparison and it is because we aren't able to hand bend a tube with 3 or 4 off plane bends and have it turn out like we need. This is the exact reasons a lot of teams tend to outsource it so that they can build lighter(more complex) frames to compete. Right now we build our frames around our capabilities. Hence we end up having a heavy car by Baja standards.

Plus there is no way to prove if a team has or hasn't outsourced and whether or not they have the abilities to do the work them selves.
And the only reason i commented was because i see tube profiling as becoming a necessity to stay competitive in the BAJA SAE competition. Hence my interest in this topic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SAEBajaTechs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/23/2015 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by krowx krowx wrote:

Im fairly certain almost every team that uses these services have access to a bender and bench grinder like we do.

So what you saying is because we are incapable of using our hand bender and our bench grinders to the accuracy needed to build our frames. That we would violate the rules by having it outsourced. Our frames are overweight by comparison and it is because we aren't able to hand bend a tube with 3 or 4 off plane bends and have it turn out like we need. This is the exact reasons a lot of teams tend to outsource it so that they can build lighter(more complex) frames to compete. Right now we build our frames around our capabilities. Hence we end up having a heavy car by Baja standards.

Plus there is no way to prove if a team has or hasn't outsourced and whether or not they have the abilities to do the work them selves.
And the only reason i commented was because i see tube profiling as becoming a necessity to stay competitive in the BAJA SAE competition. Hence my interest in this topic
 
All I can say is you are currently following the rules and if other teams are not then they are taking a chance that they may be disqualified. 

A6.2 Professional Fabrication Limits Vehicles which have been professionally fabricated may be disqualified from the competition.

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