Official Baja SAE Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > Design Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 95th percentile male / 5th percentile female
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

95th percentile male / 5th percentile female

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
jarmumd View Drop Down
Organizer
Organizer
Avatar

Joined: Oct/17/2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Status: Offline
Points: 178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jarmumd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 95th percentile male / 5th percentile female
    Posted: Feb/11/2009 at 11:50am
Supposedly this is a discussion in the FSAE circles about creating a template for seating a 95th percentile male (like me 6' 5" - 250 lbs), as well as allowing a 5th percentile female to operate the car.  This is very commonly done in ATV and automotive industry so that the product can fit the consumer.  I think it has a lot of weight in BSAE since there would be some standardization and possible fewer bumps and brusies from people squeezing into tight cars. Obviously this would make some of the cars larger (those that dont allow 6' 5" drivers - thank goodness i built our frame), and lots of other issues.  But it would probably help with seatbelts and tech in general (fewer exo cages).

thoughts?

BTW download the latest FSAE rules to see how they make up their 95th percentile template

Marc
Auburn Baja 03-05

Masters involving dynamic simulation of baja car and driver

SAE Auburn Race Organizer 06, 09, 12, 15

SAE Birmingham Race Organizer 11

National Tech. Inspector 07-15
Back to Top
adrive7 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Oct/19/2008
Location: Lancaster, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrive7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/11/2009 at 3:48pm
This isn't a bad idea. I can say this as a graduating senior since I won't have to deal with it, but I think Ergo should play a bigger role in design. I know on our team the policy in the past has been "Who freakin' cares if the car is uncomfortable? All that matters is if it goes fast." Personally I think the car should be comfortable enough to drive for 2 hours. Our 2008 vehicle, while I never found it uncomfortable, some team members can barely drive it at all without discomfort.

Fitting a bigger range of people would be a bigger challenge, especially with respect to pedal/seat placement. It would certainly add weight.

However, when thinking about all of this you have to remember our engine is a POS and we aren't even allowed to pull 10hp out of it. Slow cars are boring. Also, I really don't want to see what happened with formula happen to Baja;  the new templates they use make their cars buses.


Edited by adrive7 - Feb/11/2009 at 3:51pm
-Joe
Chief Organizer, Baja California 2016, 2017, 2019
Ohio State Baja 2005-2009
Co-Host, Science... Sort Of
http://www.sciencesortof.com
Back to Top
zehlerdj View Drop Down
Bolt Sorter
Bolt Sorter
Avatar

Joined: Nov/23/2008
Location: Clarkson
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zehlerdj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/12/2009 at 9:43pm
I am a fan of this topic because my first two years on the team we had a 6'5"er on the team and had to build a bigger car because of it. This year the car is somewhat smaller due to smaller drivers but I have a hard time choosing between whether its a good idea or not for baja.

As far as comfort that is part of design judging so whether your car is comfortable or not is up to the team.

The more I think about it though I think it would be a great equalizer in baja and should not have a large effect on the speed of well built cars. We placed top 20 in most of the dynamics, with a 3rd in suspension last year in Tennessee, with a 590lb car so weight shouldn't be an issue either, and who knows maybe it would make things more competitive.
Dan Z.
Clarkson Baja
Team Leader
Back to Top
jarmumd View Drop Down
Organizer
Organizer
Avatar

Joined: Oct/17/2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Status: Offline
Points: 178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jarmumd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/13/2009 at 9:27am
I think alot of it is the nature of baja - many of the students look at it as a race car, most of the organizers look at it as a design competition.  If you think it's a race car, then it should form fit the driver like a glove (it's your own fault for having a 6' driver).   If you think it's a design competition, then it should be marketable (like ATV's) to many different riders - commonly assumed to be in the range of 95th male / 5th female.  So it's how you look at it.  But I would agree with you zehlerdj, I have seen 6'5" 200+ drivers do very well at race, as well as shorter heavier guys.  Certainly weight/size (or lack thereof) helps you, but I think that driver ability is what wins races, not driver weight.  I was tall/heavy and a sh*tty driver...  needless to say Rotchester 05 was my only race...
Auburn Baja 03-05

Masters involving dynamic simulation of baja car and driver

SAE Auburn Race Organizer 06, 09, 12, 15

SAE Birmingham Race Organizer 11

National Tech. Inspector 07-15
Back to Top
Kenneth View Drop Down
Milling Master
Milling Master


Joined: Jan/18/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 78
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/13/2009 at 10:20am
That's definitely true, and it's kind of a shame that the expectations between competitors and organizers are so different. Unfortunately, in this design competition, it takes a race car (and some good drivers) to win. If they want it to be seen as more of a design competition, then they should fix design judging. 5 (or sometimes 2.5!) minutes to present suspension and steering and brakes is total BS.

I don't think it's a bad idea to produce more objective measures of driver comfort, but I think that while they're at it, they should tell the judges that jumping on cars doesn't tell you much about suspension. Other than that it works, I guess.
University of Michigan Baja Racing
Back to Top
CLReedy21 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Nov/30/2008
Location: Marysville, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 736
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/14/2009 at 3:28am
95th percentile male AND 5th percentile female is quite a stretch considering the rules governing driver restraint.  On an ATV you dont have a traditional seat, much less belts meaning it relatively easy to create a seating area that will accomodate that range of users.  However in a car with a 5 point harness and a traditional style seat its pretty hard to make the compromise between tall and short and still meet the rules.  I definently agree that in the past, especially in our cars, ergonomics have been terrible.  Not to point fingers, but some teams (*cough*Brazil*cough*Michigan*cough*) have shown up with cars that I couldn't understand how people could drive, but that have and quite well at that.  This year we've actually put some thought into seating position and pedal placement instead of the traditional "we need a pedal and a seat...and by the way the race is in 2 weeks" approach.  Hopefully we'll be a little better off, but we'll have to see how it turns out.
-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni
Fourwheeler Drawer



"Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain."
Back to Top
JHrdy724 View Drop Down
Bolt Sorter
Bolt Sorter
Avatar

Joined: Oct/24/2008
Location: AUburn
Status: Offline
Points: 37
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JHrdy724 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/14/2009 at 1:21pm
As a '95th percentile male' it isn't impossible to make a small maneuverable car that is comfortable. however when we did this our 5th percentile girl couldn't touch the pedal.
Now we're slamming the engine to the deck and again i must deal with the knees in the chest crunch.
There are three easy ways of losing money - racing is the quickest, women the most pleasant, and farming the most certain.
Lord Amherst
Back to Top
CLReedy21 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Nov/30/2008
Location: Marysville, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 736
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/15/2009 at 12:06am
Exactly, this year's car car fits the bigger guys, but doesn't really fit Becca without a seat pad and the pedals adjusted all the way out.
-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni
Fourwheeler Drawer



"Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain."
Back to Top
Kenneth View Drop Down
Milling Master
Milling Master


Joined: Jan/18/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 78
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/16/2009 at 12:10am
Though it apparently doesn't look like it, we actually pay a little bit of attention to ergonomics! Our hammock seat underwent a major revamp for 2007 and driving the 2006 car in our pre-Winter Baja testing last week reminded me how huge of a difference it makes. We also have some adjustability in our seat that allows our biggest and smallest drivers to drive with relative comfort. However, we don't have anyone who is 6'5", 250 lbs on our team. Surprisingly, at one competition last year, the huge ergonomics judge said our car was actually pretty comfortable (we were shocked too). I think that one of the biggest problems with our car's comfort is the fact that using front bracing makes the opening to get in really small, but we do it anyway because it's pretty much guaranteed to hold up to any rollover.
University of Michigan Baja Racing
Back to Top
CLReedy21 View Drop Down
Baja Godfather
Baja Godfather
Avatar

Joined: Nov/30/2008
Location: Marysville, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 736
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLReedy21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/16/2009 at 2:02am
I'm sure it's fine once you get in it, it just looks small.  I don't know if anybody remembers the seat in our '08 car, but it looked really comforble and the cockpit looked really inviting and spacious.  However once you're in it the seat is unsupportive and uncomfortable and the steering is in a terrible position for performace driving.  The pedals are great too...if you're 5'8" :)  That just goes to show that looks can be decieving.
-Chris Reedy
TTU Alumni
Fourwheeler Drawer



"Quick with the hammer, slow with the brain."
Back to Top
GT Steve View Drop Down
Milling Master
Milling Master


Joined: Apr/02/2009
Location: NN, VA
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GT Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/03/2009 at 1:32pm

For as long as I was involved with the team, our seat always consumed a great deal of time and energy to make sure it was comfortable, and were successful (except for one seat from 2004, not sure what happend that year).  And because of the design of the seat, pedals have usually not been too much of a problem because the taller guys just have their legs folded up more, but not uncomfortably so.  I'm still not sure to this point if the custom carbon seats were worth the several $k they cost on the cost report and the months of sanding, but then again, i haven't sat in one in a while...  we've been known to have team members fall asleep in the car while in line for tech and at promo events on campus.

However steering wheel placement has always been something of a problem, having a range of drivers at one point from 6'2" to 5'3".  Simplicity has almost always won out in the steering department, and we were able to run a solid steering shaft for every year but one, which unfortunatly left us with a slightly bus-like steering wheel.  Still worked ok though, once you got used to it.
 
Stephen
GT Off-Road Alumni
Georgia Tech ME'07

Bigger Hammer Engineering
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.